[X] My Assistant

[Prospero]

Sadly, game makers are rarely proficient with the weapons they put in their games--hence not being able to quick-draw melee weapons in SR4.

<-- Can (and has) iaijutsu'd through a steel wall stud IRL, but can't do it in game when playing an adept

BTW, not to hijack the thread, but you can actually qucik-draw anything - there's an adept power you can get that allows it or there's a martial arts maneuver (iaijutsu). Neither are in the base book, though.

[CanRay]

For the extended mag thing, you might need to strengthen the magazine well to accept the heavier weight of the extendo magazine.

But, yeah, house-ruling that one to being for guns that have built-in internal magazines, like Bolt-Action Rifles and Pump Shotguns. Revolvers got their own version already.

No, you cannot get an extended magazine for your Double-Barrelled Elephant Rifle!

[Ed_209a]

No, you cannot get an extended magazine for your Double-Barrelled Elephant Rifle!

Wouldn't that make it a triple barrel rifle? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Wouldn't that make it a triple barrel rifle? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

...

True. OK, you get to beg Holland & Holland for one. Realize that they put 200+ Manhours into each and every firearm they make. You might have to wait for more than just shipping on this one.

[Ed_209a]

True. OK, you get to beg Holland & Holland for one.

H&H sales rep: "So, Mr. Jones, you want one of the world's most expensive firearms drastically modified and customized?"
<whispers to his assistant> "Get the sales office for Bugatti on the line. Daddy needs a Veyron!"
"Mr Jones, we will get right on it!"

[Rad]

Wireless glitch ate my post, hence the late reply. Will retype...

I fail to see how the lack of moving parts (because your barrel seats directly into a socket and not a complex system designed to move rounds into and out of battery hundreds of times per minute) decreases performance. I will also note that the max suggested range if 50 meters.

You misunderstood me. The selling point behind the Sakura Fubiki (and RL stacked projectile weapons) is that fewer moving parts improve performance. Removable barrelmags work against that, because they turn the entire barrel into a moving part. Like a regular removable magazine, there has to be a certain amount of clearance between the mag and it's housing in the body of the weapon, this will cause the barrel of the weapon to vibrate when fired. Bad.

This vibration would degrade accuracy and increase the effect of recoil, possibly making it worse than a standard burst-fire weapon whose barrel is part of the frame.

Removable barrels, as I understand them, are pretty much the only good idea for stacked projectiles. The Metal Storm system works now and works fairly well (from what I've heard which admittedly isn't much), I welcome you to present evidence that there is another system of stacking projectiles that works better than a prefabbed factory direct solution.

The last time I checked, MetalStorm weapons used fixed barrels, and they were still working on improving the reloading method. As I recall, they were looking at electronically-fired stacked projectiles that expanded after loading, wedging them in the barrel, and multi-tube systems that had to be reloaded in a factory.

This may have changed, but user-replaceable barrelmags would be a step backwards for the technology--for the reasons I outlined above.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

It is because it adds to the overall bulkiness of the weapon, that's why the rule is the way it is slot-wise. The use of the Armorer skill comes in probably because extended clips go beyond the already-high capacity of standard mass-produced clips. What I mean is that you have to remachine the clip itself in some cases or alter the weapon's feeding mechanism for a wider clip. Adding capacity to a clip doesn't just mean making it longer, it can also mean using a wider clip with a different stacking, I don't remember what that is called off the top of my head.

I'm specifically angry about the Uzi IV. I'm a long-time SR player, and since SR1, my policy with regards to non-military characters (pretty much all my characters) is to buy guns based on what looks the coolest. In my opinion, the coolest SMG in the main book was the Uzi IV. If you get the time, look at that picture. Doesn't that seem like an extended clip? That would make sense, because if I recall correctly, the Uzi IV has the smallest ammo capacity of any of the main book SMGs. So naturally, when Arsenal came out, I wanted to get an extended clip. Unfortunately, it's going to take some mod work, and might actually be prevented by the fact that when I bought it, I had an internal smartlink installed, and since then, I've welded a hood ornament to the top of the thing (don't ask). I hate to sound greedy, I just don't see how a hood ornament and smartlink are going to affect how long the clip needs to be in the slightest. If I was trying to get a wider clip, it would make more sense; that's not what I'm trying to do.

[Rad]

Well, so much of the SR4 mechanics are in houserule territory anyway, you can always hope for a sympathetic DM.

Also, I checked Metal Storm's Official Website and yes, they do used fixed barrels and muzzle-loading.

[Speed Wraith]

I always preferred the look of the ISG myself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The Uzi's clip isn't really that big when you look at it. Increase the size by 50% though and take the hood ornament into account and the thing is probably taller than it is long. *shrugs* Maybe the actual B/R skill (had to bring it back to the old-skool just for you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) shouldn't be needed in all cases, but taking up a slot does seem to make sense to me. The bottom line is, can you convince your GM to go along with ignoring that part of the book to do what you want? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ed_209a]

I don't agree with the stock rules for extended magazines either. Tube magazines like on a shotgun, sure. Internal magazine, like in a SKS, sure. Not for a weapon with an internal magazine, like most semiauto pistols and nearly all SMGs & Assault rifles.

Weight eventually becomes an issue if your magazine is heavy enough (see the Betaco C-Mag), but not when adding only 50% more rounds.

Your weapon will be bulkier with an extended mag, since the mag that used to slide completely into the grip now sticks out 5 inches. Google the Glock 18 vs Glock 17 for a good comparison.

Speed Wraith made a good point about making the magazine wider, not just longer. Going from a single-stack magazine to a double-stack magazine _will_ give you more rounds in a mag of a set length, but there you _would_ need a lot of armorer work.

Really though, any Lt/Hvy pistol with over 8-10 rounds per mag is probably already double stack.

[Ed_209a]

Also, I checked Metal Storm's Official Website and yes, they do used fixed barrels and muzzle-loading.

They also don't have a small-arms market yet. They are putting a lot of time & money in the 40mm GL market, because right now, that is the only place their product is remotely practical. I like their 4x4 40mm GL, but only for applications where you are nearly assured of finishing the fight in 16 rounds, like security vehicles.

Perimeter defense would be another good application. The solid state operation would let you leave the system out on a fenceline with nearly no maintenance.

I just checked Metal Storm's site, and they do have a 4-round, 18mm shotgun module that can clip onto a rifle. It is interesting, I grant you that. It still is not a primary weapon.

The site casually mention soldiers "topping up" their weapons by loading extra rounds in the front, but don't emphasize that this entails putting your hand over the muzzle of a loaded weapon! BIG firearm no-no!

I am not saying Metal Storm will never find a niche, I just don't think it will be in conventional small-arms. The more times you think you will need to fire the weapon, the worse the Metal Storm system will fit the role. Look up the O'Dwyer pistol. It looked promising, then disappeared. It was even featured on Future Weapons (so it must be tacticool!)

Here are some places small caliber MS weapons might find a niche:

sub-sub-compact holdouts- A tube the size of a cigar holds 4 pistol rounds. Use it once then toss it, because it uses a cheap and light ceramic/carbon fiber barrel.
Less-lethal police options- A module the size of a tactical handgun light holds a few less-lethal rounds, like beanbag, stickyshock or teargas capsules.

[Rad]

I know what you mean about going by the illustrations, I have to admit that part of why I like the Sakura Fubiki. It's also why I'm ticked about the nerfed flechette ammo rules--this Ares Viper Slivergun is so slick-looking, but it's practically useless now except for assassinating unarmored opponents.

[Edit]

Edited for response to NinjapostTM:

Yeah, I'm familiar with the O'Dwyer VLe, the article about it in Popular Mechanics was where I first heard of Metal Storm.

A couple things to keep in mind:

A: The focus on military weapons over personal firearms is probably more about legal and business issues than practicality. Military contracts are where the money is, and weapons like the VLe are probably covered by some facet of the laws that ban automatic weapons. If not, they'd quickly make such a law as soon as some kid brought his dad's Bertha to school.

Also, the military is quicker to adopt new weapons tech, if it can be proven to work, whereas the public usually remains skeptical for a while after a new technology is introduced.

B: There still wasn't any way to reload these things in the field when the O'Dwyer was produced. Their site is kind of vague about the reloading methods used now, (military contractors tend to be) but there isn't a real push for them to go back into the handgun market right now, so they haven't done much development in that areas.

Just looking as the Fubiki and the ammo types in shadowrun gives you an idea of what these things could do as personal firearms. Metal Storm may push the "less lethal" angle because it makes them sound good (instead of sounding like death merchants), but the real advantage to multiple barrels is in switching between different ammo types to maximize your lethality.

Need to gun down an unarmored person in a hurry?
Use flechettes.
Got somebody hiding behind a door?
APDS.
Wanna' take out that armored mook?
EX Explosive.
Just need to drop somebody fast, without worrying about killing them or not?
Stick-n-Shock.

Load each barrel with a different ammo type, and there you go.
It's not as effective in the Fubiki, which only gives you 10 shots per barrel, but in a larger model you could pack alot more ammunition in.

Reloading's still a problem, but I'd rather muzzle-load with an electronic-firing weapon than a hammer-tripped one.

[Mäx]

I know what you mean about going by the illustrations, I have to admit that part of why I like the Sakura Fubiki. It's also why I'm ticked about the nerfed flechette ammo rules--this Ares Viper Slivergun is so slick-looking, but it's practically useless now except for assassinating unarmored opponents.

Useless?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

its +3 to damage and BF mode(FA cheaply with 1 mod slot) and okey it has +5 to Impact armor(witch is usually allready slower than ballistic) but statistically you need +9 to armor to resist that +3DV and even more if using burstfire.

[Wounded Ronin]

My teeth are ground down to little stubs now because every time I read "clips" in a SR sourcebook I gnash my teeth.

Can you believe use of the term "clips" in spite of Mike Mulvhille's intro to Cannon Companion? How can someone who claims to have stacks of gun rags say "clip" and not "magazine"?

Incidentally, I wish I could buy magazines for only 5 bucks apiece.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

<-- Can (and has) iaijutsu'd through a steel wall stud IRL, but can't do it in game when playing an adept

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqXelhHjNkU

[Rad]

Hey, after two matrix crashes, and a round of UGE, ammo gets cheap.

@ Mäx: I believe the errata nerfs the slivergun's DV too. Not specifically, and the weapon description does say slivergun ammo is unique, but if it nerfs the AP, then the DV probably goes too. So that's +2 DV, for +5 AP, which means...

>does math<

...which means you have a whopping +2 DV against unarmored opponents, otherwise you have very expensive regular ammo.

Granted, the built in burst-fire and sound suppression are sweet--especially at that price--but most of your enemies are going to have at least some armor. Even against a guard in nothing but a helmet and boxer shorts the damage code of flechettes is going to be the same as regular ammo for 5x the price...

...unless you bypass the armor with a called shot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[edit]

@ b1ffov3rfl0w

Fraggin' hilarious!

I'm good, but not that good. XD

For the record, cutting through the wall stud was an accident--I don't really have a big enough living room to practice in. This leads to interesting conversations such as: What are those gouges in your ceiling? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

My teeth are ground down to little stubs now because every time I read "clips" in a SR sourcebook I gnash my teeth.

Can you believe use of the term "clips" in spite of Mike Mulvhille's intro to Cannon Companion? How can someone who claims to have stacks of gun rags say "clip" and not "magazine"?

Incidentally, I wish I could buy magazines for only 5 bucks apiece.

Thank you. I no longer feel alone.

And I don't even have stacks of Gun Rags!

[CircuitBoyBlue]

Incidentally, I wish I could buy magazines for only 5 bucks apiece.

Last time I had to wait at the airport, I think I spent about $4.75 on a Time...

[CanRay]

Oh, yeah, you're *NOT* spending Five Bucks on a Firearm Magazine.

You're spending five (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

Which ranges between UCAS$20-30 depending on the exchange rate. Probably even more in 2070!

[HullBreach]

Incidentally, I wish I could buy magazines for only 5 bucks apiece.

Tell me about it. I just bought three new Wilson Combat Mags for my 1911 at $30USD a pop. Ouch!

[Mäx]

@ Mäx: I believe the errata nerfs the slivergun's DV too. Not specifically, and the weapon description does say slivergun ammo is unique, but if it nerfs the AP, then the DV probably goes too. So that's +2 DV, for +5 AP, which means...

why would the DV go 8P(f) is the only DV we have for the weapon i can acceps the fact that change in fletchette AP carries over but i can not accept nerfing the DV not with out a spicifig errata pot for slivergun, i thing the guns base damage code (if you could use standart ammo in it) is DV6 AP-.

[Starmage21]

Certainly!

Visual Aid Here Because IMG Tag did not work.

The item on the left is a "Clip", the item on the right is a "Magazine".

Incorrect. The clip and the magazine are now actually one object, so technically both are correct. If you want the reason why, see http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1323705

[CanRay]

I'd like to see you put forward that evidence at a gun range. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Of course, the "Flame War" there might be more dangerous than one here.

[Rad]

Every hobby has it's fanboys. You should see those Society for Creative Anachronisms guys with their "We don't want to hear about the physics behind a sword stroke! Science cannot encompass the art that is my steel!!!teh1"

Seriously, it's pathetic--especially when you get guys hamstringing their technique because they don't know the physics behind a cutting stroke and are operating under false assumptions...

[CanRay]

Could be worse. Could be a group of Fanboy Nuclear Physicists that refuse to let you talk to them about the math behind their "Art"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)