Can dragons initiate?, Making the uber-powerful even more so... Options

[Morphius]

So, can dragons initiate? If so, what benefits will they get? Just metamagic or increased maximum Magic, as well? I normally cap characters at 12 Magic regardless of initiation, which is about double. So, if dragons can increase their maximum Magic, I'll have to make a larger maximum for them. And no, there are no dragon PCs, but I'm making a dragon NPC, so I could use some input. So, can they initiate, and do they get all the benefits of initation? If so, it's not hard to imagine a dragon with a Magic of 15, 20, or even higher.

[CanRay]

Dragons don't initiate, they are just Great. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tarantula]

By RAW Characters don't have a magic cap. I don't see why dragons should have one either, or why dragons couldn't initiate. (other than that while they can initiate, they can't increase their essence, which is their magic score).

[Larme]

Dragons are magicians. Magicians can initiate. Therefore, dragons can initiate.

And they wouldn't be very powerful if they couldn't, would they? Sure, they have amazing attributes, but there are 20+ grade initiate mages out there... Dragons are the most powerful physical beings in the world, essentially without exclusion. They are not stuck at magic 6, if they were then there would be many mages around the world that could humiliate them just for fun.

[Tarantula]

No, they're stuck at Magic = Essence, and their essence is from 7-12. Thus, they can be born having a higher magic than many magicians will ever reach.

Though, they cannot increase this magic attribute, as it is tied to their essence.

[Cabral]

I think Runner's Companion will cover this.

[Prime Mover]

Not seeing anything anywhere in 4th edition about either being limited by ess now. Initiating allows an increase in magic rating with each grade. Does it state something elsewhere I'm missing?

Edit: Starting magic is limited by essence as well as magic can be lowered through essence loss.

[Tarantula]

The dragon stats, Magic = Essence. Essence goes up, their magic goes up. Essence goes down, their magic goes down.

[thiagão]

Dragons of the Sixth Age says nearly all Dragons are initiates, and Great ones are at least grade 10.

[bclements]

I think Runner's Companion will cover this.

I see what you did there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Morphius]

So, what's the consensus? Can dragons increase their Magic rating through initiation? After all, normal humans have a magic cap, too. It might not be their Essence, but it's a cap. If humans can circumvent this cap, why can't dragons? And as far as 20+ Initiate/Magic magicians go, I think that might break the game, which is why I cap Magic and Initiation at 12, barring any rare, rule-breaking exceptions (which CAN happen).

[Narmio]

If dragons can't initiate, Schwartzkopf is really, really wasting his time.

Also, pick any high-grade initiate IE who doesn't like dragons (so, almost all of them) and explain to me why he/she hasn't killed them all yet.

I don't think not having dragons able to get better at magic makes any sense at all.

[Tarantula]

IE's wouldn't have killed all the dragons due to that nifty ability the greats get called Twist Fate that make it rather hard to kill them. Note: Great dragons can initiate AND raise magic as normal, since their magic isn't tied to their essence like the regular dragons.

[Jaid]

of course, since we don't have the full rules for dragons, we don't know. it's entirely possible that dragons, when they increase their magic, increase their essence too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Dragons follow their own rules for Magic, which is older, and closer to the truth of magic than any followed by the Metahumans, from my understanding.

[sunnyside]

Dragons follow their own rules for Magic, which is older, and closer to the truth of magic than any followed by the Metahumans, from my understanding.

Yup. It isn't exactly RAW at this point. But there are some of us who still know the truth.

[masterofm]

Even if they bought up their magic. I mean think of how many runs they would have to go on before being able to do so. 100+ karma takes a looooong azz time to get no matter what you are.

[sunnyside]

Even if they bought up their magic. I mean think of how many runs they would have to go on before being able to do so. 100+ karma takes a looooong azz time to get no matter what you are.

Time is something they have lots of. I just poked around the dragon section again and I must say I'm quite pleased for reinforcing the old truths I thought would get stamped out.

They actually say

"Dragons are all capable and powerful magicians and
practice their own tradition beyond anything mere metahumanity
has achieved."

And also mention that the figures given are only a rough guidline not an accurate description of ability.

Finally the details of Twist fate again re-establish Edge/Karma/whatever as a "real" thing in the SR universe, not just a game mechanic.

[Synner]

Yes, dragons can and do initiate. Great dragons tend to be double digit grade initiates, some even higher.

[apple]

Yes, dragons can and do initiate. Great dragons tend to be double digit grade initiates, some even higher.

Excuse me ... did you just said that great dragons like Ghostwalker or Lofyr are grade 101 initiates?

And what exactly do you mean with double digit great dragons? 10? 20? 50? 99?

SYL

[Morphius]

RAW aside (since we're supposed to make our own rules anyway if they don't fit), what do you think of allowing dragons to raise magic through initiation?

[Sir_Psycho]

I hardly think there's a need for triple digits.


By the way, do dragons create background count? An area where lots of spells have been slung have at least a background count, right? With dragons being intensely magical creatures, do they create one too?

[Aaron]

Hell yes. Most already have. Fear them. Really.

[Stahlseele]

and what's up with this raising essence nonsense?
wasn't the one thing in SR that essence never goes up aside from the HMHVV people?
Not even Spirits get an raised essence if they get stronger . . heck, even if they are completely made off the stuff they don't get ANY essence if i ain't wrong O.o

[Synner]

If dragon lore is to be believed, some great dragons have (allegedly) been studying magic for more than 21k to 28k years (though admittedly they've only been active for about 11-14k of those) - make of that what you will. For dragons, their basic Magic does indeed equal Essence (rather than 1) before any Initiations and Magic increases are factored in (this is all the corebook means by that reference in the statline).