Specialization dice in Full Parry, Do they count twice? Options

[Triggerz]

Adept powers, cyberware and such often give you a modified skill rating, which I assume is used as the melee combat skill in the "Reaction + (melee combat skill x 2)" dice pool. The question I have concerns specializations. Since they provide dice pool modifiers and aren't really modifying the skill per se, does this mean that the (+2) only counts once when using Full Parry? Personally, I'd be inclined to count it twice, but the wording of the rules does not seem to support that interpretation. How do you guys handle it?

[Glyph]

Since it is explicitly a dice pool modifier, I would only count it once. You can already get 7-8 extra dice from using full defense, 9-10 if you're an adept, and that's plenty. Nothing stopping you from house ruling otherwise if you disagree, though.

[Ryu]

I count it twice, who says I can only give/gain a dp mod once? It´s not as if melee full defense is a common factor in the game. Close Combat Specialists seem to prefer the offensive.

[Aaron]

I think I'd start by re-reading the active defense rules.

[Triggerz]

Well, my adept is ambidextrous and has the Two Weapon Style maneuver (from Arsenal), so he'll be on Full Defense most of the time. He also has the "Blocking" specialization in Unarmed Combat since he prefers to use tools to whack people. (It's his idea of acting civilized. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

[Triggerz]

I think I'd start by re-reading the active defense rules.

Hmmm... I'm not sure I get what you mean. On page 147 of the BBB, they say "Reaction + melee combat skill + Dodge", so there's no issue there, but on page 151, Full Parry states "Reaction + (melee combat skill x 2)". I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything here. It's a genuine question that I have, AFTER having read and re-read the rules.

EDIT: If you have a specific reference in mind, I'd appreciate if you could share it. I'm inclined to go with Glyph's take on the issue and count the specialization only once, but I'd like to hear the whole range of opinions before deciding one way or the other.

[Aaron]

You know, intuitively, one should add the specialization twice. Strict interpretation of the rules, however, indicates that it should only be added once.

[Cabral]

I don't really see a question.
Reaction+Melee Skillx2 or Reaction+Melee Skill+Dodge forms the dice pool. Specialization adds 2 dice to it.

If you're coming from 3rd Edition, where the specialization increased the skill rating, I can understand the confusion, but the rules are pretty clear. If I full parry with my Force 4 Weapon Focus katana, do I add 8 dice to defense? No. And you only add the specialization dice once as well.

[Triggerz]

I guess that what feels weird to me is that you'll have two dice more if you Full Parry with a knife having Blades 3 versus Blades (Knives) 1 (+2). Now I understand that a Specialization allows you to raise your total dice pool higher than you could without one, but it still feels strange in cases like the example I just gave. I understand that with Blades (Knives) 1 (+2), you won't be as good with swords as the guy who has Blades 3. But when using knives, I feel like the two should be equivalent, even though the rules don't point in that direction.

[Triggerz]

I guess Blades 3 costs more than Blades (Knives) 1 (+2), so that could be an argument for not counting the specialization twice.

[Fortune]

Specializations do not add to the Skill directly, but are considered a Dice Modifier. As such, they add to the base Pool, which is almost always made up of Attribute + Skill. Specializations are treated in the same manner as things like a Smartlink or Vision Enhancement, in that they add their bonus to the Pool whenever it is appropriate, and are immaterial when the situation does not call for them.

[Ryu]

Specializations do not add to the Skill directly, but are considered a Dice Modifier. As such, they add to the base Pool, which is almost always made up of Attribute + Skill. Specializations are treated in the same manner as things like a Smartlink or Vision Enhancement, in that they add their bonus to the Pool whenever it is appropriate, and are immaterial when the situation does not call for them.

So is it appropiate to add the dp mod twice if the skill is added twice? That is the core of the matter.

[Fortune]

Why would you do that? There is only one Dice Poll. In the case of Full Defense in melee, one version of this Pool is made up of Melee Skill + Melee Skill + Reaction. That is the Pool to which things like a Parry Specialization, Reach modifier, or even Wound penalties are added in the normal manner, that being once. If we were talking about using Dodge + Dodge + Reaction, a Dodge specialization in Melee would be added once to the Dice Pool.

[Shiloh]

I guess Blades 3 costs more than Blades (Knives) 1 (+2), so that could be an argument for not counting the specialization twice.

Not really, given that the discount in costs means that you're only rating 1 in Blades-that-are-not-knives...

Specializations do not add to the Skill directly, but are considered a Dice Modifier. As such, they add to the base Pool, which is almost always made up of Attribute + Skill. Specializations are treated in the same manner as things like a Smartlink or Vision Enhancement, in that they add their bonus to the Pool whenever it is appropriate, and are immaterial when the situation does not call for them.

Why would you do that? There is only one Dice Poll. In the case of Full Defense in melee, one version of this Pool is made up of Melee Skill + Melee Skill + Reaction. That is the Pool to which things like a Parry Specialization, Reach modifier, or even Wound penalties are added in the normal manner, that being once. If we were talking about using Dodge + Dodge + Reaction, a Dodge specialization in Melee would be added once to the Dice Pool.

That makes an amount of sense, mechanically, else you'd take the relevant modifiers off the skill pool (including specialisation) and then add the pools together.

The comparison of a skill at 3 vs a skill at 1 plus specialisation, though, is a compelling for me to rule that it adds both times when the skill is counted twice in my games.

[Fortune]

A Specialization in Shadowrun does not actually affect the associated Skill in any way. It merely modifies the resulting Dice Pool when a Skill is involved, if the situation requires it. There is no difference between a Specialization and a Synthacardium and the First Impression Quality and Betel Gum. All of them are Dice Pool modifiers, and all use the same basic rules.

[Triggerz]

A Specialization in Shadowrun does not actually affect the associated Skill in any way. It merely modifies the resulting Dice Pool when a Skill is involved, if the situation requires it. There is no difference between a Specialization and a Synthacardium and the First Impression Quality and Betel Gum. All of them are Dice Pool modifiers, and all use the same basic rules.

hehe I totally agree with you that the rules on Dice Pool modifiers are pretty clear on that and I've been convinced of it since Glyph's post at the beginning of the thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Still, Blades 3 being better than Blades (Knives) 1 (+2) [EDIT: when using knives] just feels a bit weird, hence my question on whether or not a house rule for that would be in order. A specialization is a fixed 2 dice, so it is not particularly prone to abuse, in my opinion. [EDIT: I mean that it's not likely to be game-breaking in any situation, since it's a fixed 2 dice.]

Even if I houseruled specializations that way though, I would not apply the same rule to other types of Dice Pool modifiers as things could get ugly with things like Attunement (Item). Combined with the Two Weapon Style maneuver, it could make a high-level initiate virtually untouchable in melee combat. (Same thing for Weapon Foci.) That would make melee combats no fun, hence I'm not considering anything of the kind.

Anyways, I'm just throwing stuff out there...

[Triggerz]

Specializations do not add to the Skill directly, but are considered a Dice Modifier. As such, they add to the base Pool, which is almost always made up of Attribute + Skill. Specializations are treated in the same manner as things like a Smartlink or Vision Enhancement, in that they add their bonus to the Pool whenever it is appropriate, and are immaterial when the situation does not call for them.

Ok, so I was working on another character and I have some more questions on Dice Pool Modifiers. Let me know if I get anything wrong. (These are genuine questions. I am not trying to be a smartass here.)

Let's say I'm a troll Adept with Agility 7 and Unarmed 6, with a Specialization in Knockdown Attacks. (I know that Specialization isn't in the BBB, but I thought it was a bit more specific than "Martial Arts".) Being a troll, I have a Reach of 1 for unarmed combat. I also have a Reflex Recorder (Unarmed Combat) and I have +1 die on Attacks to Knockdown because I know some Tae Kwon Do. Finally, I have Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat) 3.

So let's say I am fighting 1-on-1 a Reach-0 opponent and attacking using a Knockdown Attack, then my Dice Pool is: Agi 7 + Unarmed 6 + Improved Ability 3 + Reflex Recorder 1 + Specialization 2 + Tae Kwon Do bonus 1 + Reach 1 = 21 dice. However, according to the BBB errata (1.5), Improved Ability and Reflex Recorder seem to both be skill modifiers rather than DP modifiers. As such, the bonus dice are limited to (6 x 0.5 =) 3, so 1 die is wasted and the total DP is 20 instead of 21, i.e. Agility 7 + modified Skill rating 9 + Specialization 2 + TKD bonus 1 + Reach 1 = 20.

Now let's say I'm attacking two different Reach-0 opponents. I know some Tae Kwon Do and get +1 die on using Unarmed Combat when attacking multiple targets. Page 156 goes out of its way to make explicit that DP modifiers from martial arts are limited to the rating of the relevant Combat skill, i.e. Unarmed Combat here, although it is not entirely clear to me whether we'd use the base skill or the modified skill rating if the applicable martial arts DP modifiers were north of 6. Anyways, martial arts modifiers are clearly modifying the DP and not the skill, or else the max number of bonus dice would be only half the relevant Combat skill.

When attacking multiple targets: "The attacker's dice pool is split between each attack, and each attack is handled separately." (BBB, page 148) Things that modify the skill rather than the DP will count only once, but the Specialization, the TKD bonus for Attacks to Knockdown, the TKD bonus when attacking multiple targets, and the Reach bonus will all modify the split pool rather than the base pool. The Specialization, the TDK bonus for Knockdown and the Reach bonus they are all test-specific, i.e. I could choose to attack one guy with a Knockdown attack - with all three bonuses - and the other guy with a standard melee attack - with the TDK Knockdown bonus and the Specialization not applying. The TDK bonus for multiple targets is less clear, but since it is a DP modifier and not a Skill rating modifier, I assume it would apply to each attack separately, i.e. count twice.

So assuming I attack simultaneously two Reach-0 opponents with Knockdown Attacks on both, I would get [ (Agi 7 + modified Unarmed Combat 9) / 2 = ] a base DP of 8 for each attack. Then we add the DP modifiers to each attack: Specialization 2 + TKD Knockdown bonus 1 + TKD bonus for multiple targets 1 + Reach bonus 1, for a grand total of 13 dice for each attack (assuming no other modifiers).

Now assuming I attack simultaneously three Reach-0 opponents with Knockdown Attack on all of them, I would get [ (Agi 7 + modified Unarmed Combat 9) / 3 = ] base Dice Pools of, say, 5, 5 and 6 respectively. Then we add the DP modifiers to each attack: Specialization 2 + TKD Knockdown bonus 1 + TKD bonus for multiple targets 1 + Reach bonus 1, for a grand total of 10, 10 and 11 dice for my attacks on the first, second and third targets (assuming no other modifiers).

Am I getting any of this wrong?

[EDIT: In the case of a split pool, does the specialization apply to the base pool or separately to each attack where it applies? To me, it wasn't entirely clear that it would apply to the base pool, although it would probably make things more sane.]

[Nightwalker450]

Why would you do that? There is only one Dice Poll. In the case of Full Defense in melee, one version of this Pool is made up of Melee Skill + Melee Skill + Reaction. That is the Pool to which things like a Parry Specialization, Reach modifier, or even Wound penalties are added in the normal manner, that being once. If we were talking about using Dodge + Dodge + Reaction, a Dodge specialization in Melee would be added once to the Dice Pool.

But if its Dodge(Melee) + Blades (Knives) + Reaction
you get +4 from Specializations though? Since they are seperate dice pool modifiers... You are using a knife, and you are dodging in melee.

I'd go with double specialization if its Melee x 2 + Reaction. I'm of the opinion Blades 1 (Knives) = Blades 3 as long as you are using a knife.
The break down though is that in using 2 knives... (Blades + Reaction) / 2 per attack... While Blades (Knives) is ((Blades + Reaction) / 2) + 2
which is obviously superior to the person with just blades... Specializations do odd things...

[Fortune]

In the case of a split pool, does the specialization apply to the base pool or separately to each attack where it applies? To me, it wasn't entirely clear that it would apply to the base pool, although it would probably make things more sane.

In the case of split Dice Pools, Specialization is added to each Pool, if applicable. Again, the Dice Pool is usually made up of Attribute + Skill (Reflex Recorder and Improved Ability add their ratings directly to the Skill involved). Everything else is a Dice Pool modifier, and as such is added to the Pool afterward.

[Triggerz]

I guess everyone's busy fighting over Interrupts! It's kinda sad because I'd like to hear from more people on how they handle the various types of modifiers...

[EDIT: Ah! A reply!]

[Fortune]

But if its Dodge(Melee) + Blades (Knives) + Reaction
you get +4 from Specializations though? Since they are separate dice pool modifiers... You are using a knife, and you are dodging in melee.

Yep. In the case of Melee Full Defense, if you have two separate Specializations that are both applicable, then they would both be added to the Dice Pool.

[Triggerz]

In the case of split Dice Pools, Specialization is added to each Pool, if applicable. Again, the Dice Pool is usually made up of Attribute + Skill (Reflex Recorder and Improved Ability add their ratings directly to the Skill involved). Everything else is a Dice Pool modifier, and as such is added to the Pool afterward.

So... my interpretation above would be correct? It makes specializations and martial arts bonuses really powerful, but probably not game-breaking. Well... You need to spend some serious BP to pile up the DP bonuses from martial arts, so I assume that it's alright.

[Tarantula]

I guess that what feels weird to me is that you'll have two dice more if you Full Parry with a knife having Blades 3 versus Blades (Knives) 1 (+2). Now I understand that a Specialization allows you to raise your total dice pool higher than you could without one, but it still feels strange in cases like the example I just gave. I understand that with Blades (Knives) 1 (+2), you won't be as good with swords as the guy who has Blades 3. But when using knives, I feel like the two should be equivalent, even though the rules don't point in that direction.

Nitpick that no ones done yet. You're wrong here. Blades 3 grants a 4 dice pool advantage over Blades 1 (Knifes) +2.

It grants a 2 dice pool advantage over Blades 1 (Parrying) +2.

[Triggerz]

Nitpick that no ones done yet. You're wrong here. Blades 3 grants a 4 dice pool advantage over Blades 1 (Knifes) +2.

It grants a 2 dice pool advantage over Blades 1 (Parrying) +2.

Hmmm... If you're parrying *with a knife*, wouldn't the specialization count?!?

[Tarantula]

No. Valid specializations for blades are: axes, cyber implant blades, knives, swords, and parrying.

Please, if you can explain why there would be a parrying specialization, unless the other specializations did not count when parrying?