Does Background Count make your spirits dumb?, "Durr, astral radiation make Fire Spirit think like Krunk"... Options

[Fuchs]

Step by step, spellcasting seems to indicate that the mana static effect could be considered gone before the drain resistance check is made:

(SR4 p. 173)

Step 4: Spellcasting Test

Step 5: Determine Effect

Step 6: Resist Drain

Now, once you drop your own magic rating to 0 by your own spell in step 5, the spell cannot be sustained, so should poof at once, so there's no static around to affect step 6.

That is a rather semantic interpretation though, and one could as well rule that effects linger for the whole spellcasting action sequence.

[Shiloh]

Step by step, spellcasting seems to indicate that the mana static effect could be considered gone before the drain resistance check is made:

(SR4 p. 173)

Step 4: Spellcasting Test

Step 5: Determine Effect

Step 6: Resist Drain

Now, once you drop your own magic rating to 0 by your own spell in step 5, the spell cannot be sustained, so should poof at once, so there's no static around to affect step 6.

That is a rather semantic interpretation though, and one could as well rule that effects linger for the whole spellcasting action sequence.

"Determine effect" doesn't mean "comes into effect", necessarily. It's partly because we humes can't do both at the same time, and partly to emphasise that a spell works even if its caster fails the Drain test.

[BRodda]

Absolutely not, no. but assuming he survives, bleeding nose and potential stroke an' all, does he still have enough *omph* to keep the Heal spell he just popped onto the exsanguinating teammate going? Perhaps this is an intentional and circumstantial limit to the Force of Manastatic: don't cast one that'll drop your Magic to zero if you want to keep sustaining any spells. Or maybe a Magic Rating of 0 is still a Magic Rating, for the purpose of sustaining an already-cast spell.

OK, stupid question then. Background counts only hurts if its not aspected toward your tradition. If I'm casting it, why isn't it aspected toward my tradition (or at lest toward me).

Of course even I'd say that is broken, but if I'm a hermetic mage why can't I cast mana static that only affects shamans? Or is that a whole new spell?

[Tarantula]

Because the background count created via mana static isn't aspected at all. Aspecting background counts takes a considerable amount of time (and a metamagic) so its beyond the abilities of merely a single spell.

[FrankTrollman]

A very important thing to consider is that Mana Static creates background count equal to the number of spellcasting hits, not the Force of the spell. So to get a Rating 8 Background out of the deal, you'd need to cast it at Force 8, and you'd need to actually roll 8 hits on the casting test. And while that is possible, it would generally be just as possible to cast a high force Mana Ball and kill all the spirits that way.

-Frank

[suppenhuhn]

If you have magic 6, spellcasting 6 and edge 4 then 8 hits are what you'd expect. Also you could cast it at a lower force so drain stays stun and you don't have the diminishing effect on your party's size that a force 8 stunball would have (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tarantula]

suppenhuhn hit on the benefit of mana static compared to manaball for spirit removal purposes. Just because the spirit is in melee with your street sam/adept/anyone except yourself, doesn't make mana static any less effective.

[Fortune]

I prefer Slaughter Spirit myself.

[Tarantula]

I prefer Slaughter Spirit myself.

But this one doubles as a way to neuter the enemy mage as well (since there is no reistance test, counterspelling doesn't help).......

I just thought of a new way to kill a dragon!

[Fortune]

You keep stating that there is no Resistance test (hence no Counterspelling), but I have yet to see that this is actually the case. I believe that Counterspelling does apply, and I seem to recall Synner confirming this somewhere around here.

[Tarantula]

I tried for a good long while to try to get a clear answer, but just as with physical barrier, mana barrier, and the rest, since its an environmental spell, it doesn't directly affect the mage and thus, no counterspelling.

I do not think it should work this way, but by RAW it does, I hope environmental spells are errataed to include that if a target who is counterspelled is in the area of effect, counterspelling can apply to the spellcasting test.

[Fortune]

Shrug. As far as I know, if the Spell doesn't actually call for a Resistance test, then the (target) mage just rolls Counterspelling alone to resist the Spell or reduce its effects.

[Tarantula]

The problem, is that counterspelling only works if the mage/target is the target of the spell. These spells do not target people, they target the environment, and as such, are never eligible for counterspelling.

[Fortune]

I guess we'll just have to agree to differ, because I just don't see it that way, and as I said above, I seem to recall Synner speaking up and clarifying the matter.

[DocTaotsu]

I have to agree with Fortune here as well. Counterspelling is described as "jamming" astral space which seems in indicate you can do it for just about anything. After all it'd be pretty crappy not to be able to jam that flamethrower spell just because it's generating physical heat.

[FrankTrollman]

If you have magic 6, spellcasting 6 and edge 4 then 8 hits are what you'd expect. Also you could cast it at a lower force so drain stays stun and you don't have the diminishing effect on your party's size that a force 8 stunball would have (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

LOL WUT?
12 dice. spend an Edge to reroll failures: average 6.7 hits.
16 dice, having spent an Edge to get rule of 6: average 6.4 hits.
And the Force limits hits, so you can't cast it at less than Force 8 if you want to get 8 hits. To get an average of 8 hits by spending Edge for extra dice and ignoring the hit cap, you'd need to be rolling a total of 20+ dice, which is just plumb hard to do (and even that would only give you 8 hits half the time).

You have to be seriously full of awesome to get 8 hits on a spellcasting test. There are folks who can do it, but they are few and far between.

---

Meanwhile, Mana Static is an environmental spell. It doesn't grant spell resistance, and Counterspelling doesn't do crap against it. Spells which affect the world physically in that manner don't allow Counterspelling. Even Firebolts don't allow normal counterspelling, the sounterspelling dice are only rolled to soak damage after the firebolt already impacts the victim.

But the absolute coolest thing about Mana Static, the reason that it has one of the most obscene drain codes in the entire game, is because you can use it to disrupt enemies who are on the Astral while you are not. Mana Static affects space, which is Dual Natured. The space then becomes so inhospitable to Astral Forms that they become disrupted. But you never actually targeted anything Astral while you were physical. This means that you can open fire with what are effectively deadly weapons on spirits without subjecting yourself to their attacks. A Mage with Mana Static can force a spirit ambush to materialize or run without exposing himself to danger. And that's awesome.

-Frank

[DocTaotsu]

Into the light I command you!

So, short of droping the mage before he permancies the spell, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it?

[Fuchs]

Move out of the area? Space your spirits out so they don't get hit all at once? Shoot the mage after he took drain? Know that you're safe from enemy spirits as well?

It's not as if it's a particularly powerful spell against mages who do not rely too much on spirits and/or sustained, locked or quickened spells. It's a bit like throwing smoke grenades.

[Tarantula]

Found it.

The next batch of SR4 errata should address this. It will effectively clarify that when there is no relevant Att to add to the Counterspelling skill (such as in the case of inanimate objects), then Counterspelling is still rolled and hits are deducted from the Spellcaster's successes before these are compared with Object Resistance. The same errata should also address how mana barriers affect spells that do not require Resistance Tests.

Though, he doesn't quite nail down and if Environmental spells can/can't be counterspelled.

[Tarantula]

Move out of the area? Space your spirits out so they don't get hit all at once? Shoot the mage after he took drain? Know that you're safe from enemy spirits as well?

It's not as if it's a particularly powerful spell against mages who do not rely too much on spirits and/or sustained, locked or quickened spells. It's a bit like throwing smoke grenades.

Really? Ok, I'll cast a force 4 mana static on your mage then. Have fun with an effective +4 to force for drain purposes for EVERY spell you cast. Oh, and a -4 to your magic.

[Fuchs]

Really? Ok, I'll cast a force 4 mana static on your mage then. Have fun with an effective +4 to force for drain purposes for EVERY spell you cast. Oh, and a -4 to your magic.

I'd simply move out of the area, then cast. The area of effect is not mobile. It is really like smoke grenades in that regard - as long as a mage is within the area of effect, he has trouble targetting spells, but the smoke doesn't cling to him. And I'd rather have smoke grenades lobbed at me than WP, and rather mana static than fireball.

[CanRay]

So, short of droping the mage before he permancies the spell, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it?

First rule of Combat: Shoot the Magician.

Second rule of Combat: Shoot the Big Ork.

Third rule of Combat: If you're a Big Ork, get a Magician friend.

[FrankTrollman]

Really? Ok, I'll cast a force 4 mana static on your mage then. Have fun with an effective +4 to force for drain purposes for EVERY spell you cast. Oh, and a -4 to your magic.

Well, it's a -4 to actual spell Force as well, so that cancels as far as Drain is concerned. A better wording would have been:

• Your Magic Attribute is reduced by the rating of the Background Count while you are in it.
• The Force of any spell you cast into or out of a Background Count is reduced by the rating of the Background Count (this does not reduce the Drain of the spell).
• The Force of any sustained spell brought into a background count has its Force reduced by the rating of the Background Count until it leaves the Background Count. Spells brought to zero are disrupted.
• The Force of any Spirit brought into a background count has its Force reduced by the rating of the Background Count until it leaves the Background Count. Spirits brought to zero are disrupted.

The thing where the Force of a spell is reduced and then increased for the purposes of Drain is weird and unfortunate.

---

But in any case, I would way rather that someone hit me with a Force 4 Mana Static than have them get the same 6 Drain getting the same 4 hits shooting me with a Force 7 Flamethrower.

-Frank

[Tarantula]

I'd simply move out of the area, then cast. The area of effect is not mobile. It is really like smoke grenades in that regard - as long as a mage is within the area of effect, he has trouble targetting spells, but the smoke doesn't cling to him. And I'd rather have smoke grenades lobbed at me than WP, and rather mana static than fireball.

It is until it becomes permanent. Just like any other area spell being sustained. And since it takes 2xDV in Combat Turns to become permanent, for a force 4 Mana Static that means you can move it around for (4/2=2+4=6x2=)12 combat turns. Though, I can see the arguement that you shouldn't be able to move a spell as you sustain it to become permanent (or an equally good arguement, that moving it resets the timer for it to become permanent.)

A better use by the mage would be to delay his action (assuming he got to go first) then interrupt your casting by casting his mana static on top of you.

[Fortune]

Found it.

Much obliged. I knew I hadn't dreamed it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Though, he doesn't quite nail down and if Environmental spells can/can't be counterspelled.

Close enough for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)