 Alternate SR, What if...? |
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 Dec 9 2003, 01:03 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Jacksonville, NC Member No.: 568  |
I was reading through my SR3 and subsequent source manuals and I got to thinking about how different things might have been if a few key events never happened? How would the SR world as we know it have been affected? What if that mysterious Nightwraith/assassination attack that ended the Euro-Wars failed or never happened at all? What could have been the consequences? Would/Could the Ruskies have taken it all the way and won? If there were prisoners captured from the assassins, who would have been implicated? Would/Could the Ruskies have gone further than Europe? Also, what if the NAN decided that Seattle was an eyesore that they didn't want there anymore? I would like to hear some feedback on this, how would You make the SR world different?
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Dec 9 2003, 01:35 PM
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#2
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Sort of like... The Man in the High Arcology, huh? Hmmm... Well, I'm up way do late having waded through volumes of linguistic/cognitive psychology research and drank far more caffeine than the human body should be forced to process... :eek: so I think I'm qualified to answer that question.
I don't think that the Russians would have been able to defeat Europe. At the very most, they would have been defeated in Germany. I'm not even sure I would give them that - they were still fighting in Yakut, as I recall, and a war on two fronts... well, nobody can win one of those. As for the NAN and Seattle... Eh, I'll leave it to someone else with a little more sleep. |
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Dec 9 2003, 01:51 PM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
About Seattle, depends when they'd decided that. If it was quickly enough, they'd've crushed the US forces no trouble. Later on, when the UCAS army incorporated mages properly, they wouldn't've had a chance.
~J |
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Dec 9 2003, 03:22 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
When would they decide this? The answer to that question makes all the difference. For example, in the early Ghost Dance years, when the US military couldn't find its ass with both hands, a road map, and a tour guide, and when the Indians could do no wrong and were inexplicably numerous and powerful...Seattle is screwed. By the time of the Treaty of Denver, places were needed for tens of millions of refugees being booted out of the Western US/NAN by about 2 million native Americans. Denying the US a convenient metropolitan area like Seattle to resettle refugees is a potential international PR problem for the NANers, it could cost them their moral high ground and support. By the 2030s, I think the US (or UCAS) would fight. It would've had a much better understanding of magic by then, and the Native Americans are giving the US an ideal fight: the assault of an urban area. (Either that or NAN might be stupid and try to blockade the city or something, creating another PR nightmare. I can see the headlines: "Native Americans Starve Anglo Children," "NAN Launches More Terror Strikes Against Seattle Infrastructure - Eldery and Children Now Without Adequate Water or Power for 8 Days," etc.) No doubt the NAN would be trying to spin it the other way, but...well, see my closing remarks. By the 2050s, the NAN folks are definitely in trouble, because the UCAS has over a generation and about 4 decades of magic-fighting experience. Post-Chicago, it's ready to deal with shamans and spirits, and has about a century of dealing with insurgents/guerillas/irregular warfare troops like the NAN favors. (And if NAN gives the UCAS a stand-up fight...) In closing...How are you going to drive out millions of inhabitants from a major city without creating a PR nightmare and have the world turn on you? There was a way during the Great Ghost Dance. In the 2010s, the US was trying to exterminate the Indians; the Indians were right to fight back. But launching a war of aggression cuz you don't like an Anglo metroplex? That could be spun to be racist, possibly genocidal, and definitely naughty. I'm sure Japan would be happy to help defend Seattle like it did in CalFree; Azte...er, Aztlan would also be happy to send in some troops to "stabilize the region"; the CAS might be talked into sending a token detachment while offering a lot of pressure on the other side of the NAN states; and, of course, the UCAS can not only defend Seattle, it can roll into some NANs from the east. The NANs have big borders and a small population. |
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Dec 9 2003, 04:33 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Jacksonville, NC Member No.: 568 |
In regards to Seattle, I read somewhere, i can't remember where off the top of my head, that the Crow Nation is more radical is their views of Seattle on "their" lands. It said that the motion of invasion of Seattle and the booting of all anglos from there have been thus far thwarted by the NAN council. So what if, in 2063 they finally passed the motion to boot them out? or what if the Crow went and took matters into their own hands? What would the rest of the NAN do? Side with their Crow counterparts? Stand aside and do nothing? Would it let UCAS send troops to ward off the attacks? How would the Shadowrunners and Corps contribute to this situation? Could they even provide any help to the UCAS Army?
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Dec 9 2003, 05:09 PM
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#6
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Oh hell yes. It's clearly stated that Seattle, as the one remaining contact with the Pacific, is very important to the UCAS. There's no way they wouldn't call in everything they had. It's like asking if the US would've defended West Germany against a Soviet attack. ~J |
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Dec 9 2003, 05:24 PM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,035 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Anahiem, CA Member No.: 100 |
What if the Big D decided not to knock himself off and stay on as the Pres?
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Dec 9 2003, 05:28 PM
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#8
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Then the horrors come and the world dies.
~J |
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Dec 9 2003, 05:29 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,035 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Anahiem, CA Member No.: 100 |
Heh. Oh yeah... nevermind. :oops:
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Dec 9 2003, 05:56 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
I covered that scenario earlier: "By the 2050s, the NAN folks are definitely in trouble, because the UCAS has over a generation and about 4 decades of magic-fighting experience. Post-Chicago, it's ready to deal with shamans and spirits, and has about a century of dealing with insurgents/guerillas/irregular warfare troops like the NAN favors. (And if NAN gives the UCAS a stand-up fight...)" Also note my earlier comments about international condemnation and possible anti-NAN coalitions (-of convenience). The Crow are in the wrong in this situation. They are the aggressors without a moral high ground. See: Iraq's annexation of Kuwait, c1990.
Probably condemn the Crow, then start various pressure measures to avoid having the UCAS reinforce Seattle by land (i.e., roll over NAN), perhaps moving up to token anti-Crow military actions that balance UCAS needs with NAN internal politics. If the Crow screw up too badly, it's bad news for the NAN as a whole. It is in NAN's best interest to get the matter stopped before the UCAS stomps the Crow into the ground and demands concessions.
Do the Native American Nations have a choice? NAN doesn't have much of a navy (some speed boats with missile launchers?) to keep the UCAS Marines and Navy from going around the tip of South America, or going through Panama.
Shadowrunners: potent irregular troops, i.e., guerillas and sell-swords (so to speak) with too many individual motivations to classify. I'm sure they could hurt the Crow badly, even in stand-up fights. Some would work for the Crow. Treat them as well-armed and effective guerillas for force calculations. Corps: Depends on the politics of the moment and risk to their operations. Irrelevant of its "nationality," Ares would find a bigger market in supplying the UCAS military than the NAN. Most AAA megacorps have large amounts of assets worth tens of hundreds of billions of nuyen (total) in the metroplex, and now some Injuns want to boot them out? Even major second-tier outfits like Boeing and Microdeck would be extremely unhappy at the thought of being booted out of their facilities in the metroplex - they're both strongly concentrated in Seattle. The economic losses of the Seattle Metroplex population being evicted by the Crow is enough to put most corps against the idea. Megacorps that can get some advantage out of the situation might side with the Crow, but even traditionally "anti-UCAS" corps like Aztech and the Japanese megas stand to loose a huge market in Seattle. The relocated Anglo refugees from Seattle will represent a much smaller market than the established, housed, and First World consumers of Seattle, so I think most megacorps will be against this Crow action. Seattle itself: I recall a US soldier recently commenting on the occupation of Iraq. He was speaking of door-to-door searches and said, "Thank God this isn't Utah." Iraq was and is a largely unarmed society, contrary to what you might think from the ongoing body count. Something like only 20 guns were found in a search of 1200 homes. Indeed, can you imagine the Crow (smaller population than Seattle) attempting to occupy a metroplex where everybody and their mother packs heat and body armor? No, I don't foresee battalions of stalwart citizenry charging the dirty invaders. I'm talking about the guerilla action carnage the lightly-armed Crow military would suffer. NAN militaries are not stand-up, heavy-armor militaries that can survive urban warfare well. They evolved out of the guerillas that defeated the US in hit-and-run warfare. The Crow do not have the tens of thousands of troops necessary to occupy a big city like Seattle, and they're facing a much more armed population than the US is facing in Baghdad. Even the police in Seattle have armored vehicles. UCAS Military & Metroplex Guard: Don't forget, the UCAS does have military troops in Seattle. By 2063, it abandoned its old attitude toward Seattle ("that awkwardly isolated place on the West Coast,") and moved in a lot of troops, including a large magical detachment. The Metroplex Guard and UCAS military stationed in Seattle probably rival or exceed the entire Crow military in size, not to mention firepower. The Crow have no magical edge. It be a short, quick disaster for the Crow. If the Native American Nations are lucky, they'll be allowed to oust the Crow tribal leadership and establish a NAN-backed provisional government. If they're not, the UCAS will get a lot of land concessions and a UCAS-dominated Crow provisional government. |
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Dec 9 2003, 09:52 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 917 Joined: 5-September 03 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Member No.: 5,585 |
Police? Even the Florists have armoured vehicles. L. Uh, and no. It was a run, and it wasn't good, and I don't wanna talk about it. |
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Dec 9 2003, 10:01 PM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Tease. |
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Dec 9 2003, 10:09 PM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Jacksonville, NC Member No.: 568 |
Ok, political intrigue time boys and girls. Going with Cray's post, what if the UCAS prompted a Crow invasion of Seattle to consolidate some lost lands? Now bear with me. Like Cry said, the NAN is kinda in trouble with the magical side of the spectrum, with the UCAS military cutting their teeth with Bug City, and they cannot equally match the standup firepower of the UCAS Army, so what if A Shadowrun team, with the backing of the UCAS gummit staged a series of Political hits or something along that line to bait the Crow, to rile them up. A bunch of anglo interlopers that strike at them and then hide in the city thats sitting on their land might be enough to provoke an attack. Of course to stop the "rouge" NAN nation the UCAS would sent in the Marines... Or the Army if they have to, to "rescue" Seattle. Then they would occupy the Crow lands and try to rebuild the lands and have a puppet govt on the NAN council. Comments, bitches, moans, complaints?
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Dec 9 2003, 10:23 PM
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#14
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Chaos. The UCAS would win any standard war, hands down, but I don't think it could ever really keep the lands it took back. The NANs are too heavily entrenched and could wage geurilla warfare pretty much indefinatlly. They also have some serious polititical and economic pull behind them (think Gaeatronics). Hey, that's an interesting idea - if the UCAS didn't capture all the power stations around, the SSC could just stop sending power to the plex. After all Gaeatronics supplies most of Seattle's power. Teh military might still be able to function on back-ups for a while, and hospitals and arcologies would have their own power, but what about the rest of the plex?
I think a really interesting question about the area, and far more feasable one, is what if Seattle started to really move on the independance idea? The notion of making Seattle a free city has already been introduced, though the UCAS squashed it as quickly and firmly as possible (and hampered any trade relations Seattle was trying to make with outside sources). Free Seattle anyone? |
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Dec 9 2003, 10:25 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 413 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,835 |
Could be spun? :rotfl: I think it would require a 12-die botch to manage NOT to spin it that way ;) |
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Dec 10 2003, 02:05 AM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Too clumsy, complicated and likely to fail with the 2060-era media, but it might be tried anyway.
Nrgh. Rogue = thief, wild. Rouge = French for red. Sorry, had to say it.
IMO, too much evidence that Anglos were attacking the Crow, particularly if the Crows' rallying cry was "Anglos are assassinating us!!!" The UCAS might back off like the US did from the Cuban rebels during the Bay of Pigs after defending Seattle. After all, the UCAS's foes are going to believe the Crow over the UCAS. Then, yes, the Crow have a reason to invade. Unfortunately, the UCAS has reason not to counter-invade after the Crow attack is defeated. The UCAS might follow through anyway, in which case it turns into a political and diplomatic cluster f*** for the UCAS.
Naw. The UCAS occupation forces probably outnumber the entire Crow population and, like I said earlier in the thread, the UCAS has about a century of doing little BUT fighting wars against guerillas. It is well-suited to reclaiming the land and evicting the Crow. However, I think the UCAS would get burned by this, and I don't mean by a bunch of guerillas. The UCAS is going to suffer majorly bad diplomatic and political mojo. Savior, I think the scenario is fairly unlikely. It would take very politically and diplomatically insensitive leadership in the White House to force through the occupation of the Crow, particularly when all evidence says the White House incited the Crow to attack Seattle. I think the Crow are unlikely to attack Seattle, too. As for a Free Seattle, that idea wasn't only squashed by the UCAS, it tended to be a short-lived idea among the Seattle citizenry, too. A majority of the citizenry seemed to recognize that a Free Seattle is a Seattle in a lot of trouble. It might loose its trade with the UCAS, it's almost a corporate state now, it's within the Japanese sphere of influence, the NAN would love to be able to squeeze it without worrying about UCAS smackdowns, and political leadership seems to have the talents of the CFS leadership (not much), the Metroplex Guard gets spanked by gangers...no, the idea might've looked popular in the early 2050s, but I doubt it lasted until 2063. |
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Dec 10 2003, 02:06 AM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Why couldn't Lofwyr or Rymuyo or Aden gone to save the world from Horrors?
The Big D was the only decent one of the lot, except for maybe Masaru |
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Dec 10 2003, 02:15 AM
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#18
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Because he was the only decent one of the lot.
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Dec 10 2003, 06:34 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 100 Joined: 26-November 03 From: San Marcos, CA Member No.: 5,855 |
As long as we talk about politics here, I have an interesting scineario:
What if the CFS reapplied for unification? Now? What would the UCAS do? By the time the measure gets through, there most undoubtably at war with the Japanese, The Tir might enter the Redding-Eureka zone, and Aztlan might try to nipe reunification in the bud. But Seattle might protest loudly... Thoughts? |
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Dec 10 2003, 06:51 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Cleveland-Akron Sprawl Member No.: 1,200 |
What if...
1. There were no immortal elves? :D 2. The Shiawase Decision hadn't been ruled on yet or came down the other way? 3. Gammaware hadn't been forgotten? :D 4. The writers hadn't defused a large part of the Chicago problem with a hefty dose of magical Raid? 5. The Universal Brotherhood had ten more years before they were found out? |
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Dec 10 2003, 06:54 PM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
1) There would be a lot more dragons.
2) There would be no Shadowrunners. 3) There would be more riggerdeckermages. 4) There would still be a big containment zone. 5) The Shadowrun world would've ended with the bugs taking over. ~J |
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Dec 11 2003, 07:50 AM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
there's no way in hell the UCAS would take Cali back in the state (heh) CFS is in now. remember, CFS didn't do the dumping--CFS was the dumped.
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Dec 11 2003, 07:55 AM
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#23
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Actually, both are right. Summary: CFS: Help us or we'll leave too. UCAS: Bye. |
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Dec 11 2003, 08:34 AM
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#24
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
indeed. however, it still remains that CFS would need to apply for unification from a position much stronger than it has.
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Dec 11 2003, 09:47 AM
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#25
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
I disagree. There's just too much territory there for geurillas to hide in/base themselves out of. Plus the Sioux have trained much of their population for exactly that eventuality, esp. the Wildcats, and they train with their own stuff and also UCAS-style equipment just in case. And there is NO WAY they wouldn't have any of the NANs backs' if they got attacked. Plus, the Crow are pretty militant. My guess is that a lot of their citizenry wouldn't have a problem taking up arms. Plus the UCAS would have limited ability to supply any fronts: yeah, they have a fort in Seattle, but there's only so many soldiers and supplies and vehichles that can be transported through one location. It'd be a situation similar to the Yucutan: the Azzies have a much better army in every way, but they don't own the area. They just can't seem to take it. Short of killing the whole population or deporting them, they will never own the area completely (which it looks like the Azzies are trying to do. The UCAS couldn't afford to. As dystopian as it can be, it isn't a dictatorship like Aztlan). Of course, its just a bad idea all around and whould never happen for a lot of other reasons (which you pointed out) so there's really not much of a reason to argue it, I guess... :rotate: |
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