Armor Rating in Chargen, Limited to 6? Options

[Tarantula]

Yes, but it's not a position worth discussing, if the only thing about it we're discussing is whether or not it's RAW. It doesn't matter if it's RAW or not, so why are you still harping on that particular point?

The entire discussion is about if it is RAW or not to have modifications pre-installed upon chargen.

The books don't address it. Since if everything the books don't address was true, then why shouldn't everyone start with bunnies on their heads too? I mean, the books don't say they don't so obviously they must!

[Jaid]

The entire discussion is about if it is RAW or not to have modifications pre-installed upon chargen.

The books don't address it. Since if everything the books don't address was true, then why shouldn't everyone start with bunnies on their heads too? I mean, the books don't say they don't so obviously they must!

ah, but no one is saying they *must*, they're just saying that it isn't true that they *can't*. it's a very fine distinction, and one which you seem to be trying to address with what is probably a straw man (i never took debate, but i'm pretty sure this is a straw man arguement, and it's the second one you've tried at that).

in both cases, it's the GM's decision. so sure, the book doesn't say everyone starts with bunnies on their heads, nor does it say they do not, and it is therefore up to the GM to decide. i would venture a guess that there are more GMs rule that you do not start with bunnies on your head than there are GMs that rule you do, but that does not alter the fact that the question of whether or not you start with a bunny on your head is not addressed in the RAW, and that there is therefore no RAW ruling on the matter.

now if you have a point that is relevant to the discussion, kindly present it, and if you can actually show me some written rules that address the situation one way or another, i just might concede the point that the RAW says one way or another. until you present some written rules that clearly address the situation though, i'm going to have to stick with my position that if there are no written rules about it, there can clearly be no Rules As Written about it. you're fine to rule it your way for your games, but don't go around declaring it to be the default assumption as found in the rulebooks when there is no default assumption in the rulebooks.

[Tarantula]

I know that it is a valid arguement, and not a strawman. I just can't for the life of me remember what it is called. Its something along the lines, of when you are following a set of rules (such as those in the rulebook) the fact that the rulebook doesn't permit something means that it is denied.

The example is that the rulebook doesn't say you start with bunnies on your head. The logical conclusion then is that you don't

Same with the weapon modifications. The rulebook doesn't say you start with them built into a weapon, so they aren't.

[Mäx]

It doesn't really say that you start with your ware installed, that just the sensible assumption.

[Ryu]

Yes, but it's not a position worth discussing, if the only thing about it we're discussing is whether or not it's RAW. It doesn't matter if it's RAW or not, so why are you still harping on that particular point?

That is the core of the matter - RAW is considered agreed upon unless houserules are in effect. And it would suck to build a rigger without access to mods. Therefore I do consider it important (and quite relevant to your topic).

[Tarantula]

It doesn't really say that you start with your ware installed, that just the sensible assumption.

SR4, 84, "In addition to the nuyen cost, each item of cyberware or bioware also has a secondary cost in Essence. This Essence Cost is the amount by which the character’s Essence is reduced when the cyberware or bioware is installed. Starting characters cannot have an Essence of 0, but any fraction above zero is fine."

It doesn't explicitly say it, but it heavily implies that cyberware bought at creation is installed.

With weapon modifications, there is no such text, and it even provides requirements necessary to install the modifications.

[Muspellsheimr]

The entire discussion is about if it is RAW or not to have modifications pre-installed upon chargen.

The books don't address it. Since if everything the books don't address was true, then why shouldn't everyone start with bunnies on their heads too? I mean, the books don't say they don't so obviously they must!

I would like to point out that because the books do not address it, it is clearly not Rules as Written if it is allowed or not.

[Jaid]

I would like to point out that because the books do not address it, it is clearly not Rules as Written if it is allowed or not.

good luck with getting him to acknowledge that. i've been trying for quite a while now.

and tarantula, i don't see anything that even particularly implies your 'ware comes installed. i see rules for a game effect that occurs when 'ware is installed, but there is nothing to indicate that 'ware purchased at chargen comes installed. it certainly does tell you that when you install 'ware you lose essence, but there's nothing that says anything about chargen one way or the other.

[Tarantula]

The part that implies it comes pre-installed is where it places a limit on a starting characters essence. If it didn't come pre-installed, there would be no need for such a limit, as every starting characters essence would be 6, because no ware would be installed.

[Jaid]

actually, severe addictions can also reduce essence at chargen. either way, it doesn't really say the 'ware comes installed, and that could just as easily be viewed as stating that *if* you rule (in your game) that 'ware comes installed, you can't put in enough to reduce you to essence 0.

[Tarantula]

actually, severe addictions can also reduce essence at chargen. either way, it doesn't really say the 'ware comes installed, and that could just as easily be viewed as stating that *if* you rule (in your game) that 'ware comes installed, you can't put in enough to reduce you to essence 0.

First off, they do not put in conditionals that are dependant on houserules.

Secondly, you're right, burnout addictions can, but you can't take enough to cause you to come near 0, so that is irrelevant.

As I said, it doesn't state it explicitly, only alludes to it. Its clear enough that cyberware is intended to be installed in chargen.

What is never alluded to is having equipment modifications installed in chargen. And in fact, there is an explicit process you must go through to install the modifications, including several skill checks. Which would indicate that they are not installed in chargen.

[Jaid]

First off, they do not put in conditionals that are dependant on houserules.

Secondly, you're right, burnout addictions can, but you can't take enough to cause you to come near 0, so that is irrelevant.

As I said, it doesn't state it explicitly, only alludes to it. Its clear enough that cyberware is intended to be installed in chargen.

What is never alluded to is having equipment modifications installed in chargen. And in fact, there is an explicit process you must go through to install the modifications, including several skill checks. Which would indicate that they are not installed in chargen.

it's not a houserule either way, it's just an interpretation of the rules.

and there is an explicit process for how you code software, there are rules for building guns, vehicles, etc. that doesn't mean that when my chargen character buys a bulldog stepvan that he's got the parts for one, and has to assemble it himself in play. why should that be the case for the modifications for the vehicles and weapons, if it isn't the case for the weapons and vehicles themselves? certainly, you *could* run it that way. but to declare it to be the default rules or that it's the rules as written when there is no rules written about it one way or another is just silly.

the simple fact is that there is no default ruling on the matter. you yourself have indicated that there are no written rules covering it. why is it so hard to go from that to the fact that if there are no written rules one way or the other, then there is no default set of rules for it?

[Tarantula]

and there is an explicit process for how you code software, there are rules for building guns, vehicles, etc. that doesn't mean that when my chargen character buys a bulldog stepvan that he's got the parts for one, and has to assemble it himself in play. why should that be the case for the modifications for the vehicles and weapons, if it isn't the case for the weapons and vehicles themselves? certainly, you *could* run it that way. but to declare it to be the default rules or that it's the rules as written when there is no rules written about it one way or another is just silly.

the simple fact is that there is no default ruling on the matter. you yourself have indicated that there are no written rules covering it. why is it so hard to go from that to the fact that if there are no written rules one way or the other, then there is no default set of rules for it?

I didn't say there were no rules, just no explicit ones. There are relevant rules that address it, such as the one I've quoted about cyberware.

If you want to get technical, you aren't buying the parts for a bulldog stepvan, you are buying a bulldog stepvan. You are buying the parts of modifications, you aren't buying for example, a bulldog stepvan with extra entry/exit points modified in it.

You buy a gun. You buy some ammo. Is the ammo automatically loaded in the gun? Technically, no, but its such an automatic thing to have done, we can assume the character does it after he buys the gun.

You buy a car. You buy modification parts. Its the car already modified? No. You have to get a kit/shop/facility and spend the time (and have the skills) necessary to apply the modification parts to the car. Assuming it comes pre done makes the process of needing to install modifications pointless.

[Cabral]

So Tarantula, I want to start with a smartlink in my gun. Does that mean I, 1) buy it for the base cost of my gun and it's installed, using zero capacity or 2) As of Arsenal all starting characters with built-in smartlinks are invalid as the new Arsenal version supersedes the BBB version, capacity but it cannot be installed before the character starts.

The simplest answer? This is not D&D/d20. The rules are written in English, not Rules Lawyer.

[Tarantula]

So Tarantula, I want to start with a smartlink in my gun. Does that mean I, 1) buy it for the base cost of my gun and it's installed, using zero capacity or 2) As of Arsenal all starting characters with built-in smartlinks are invalid as the new Arsenal version supersedes the BBB version, capacity but it cannot be installed before the character starts.

The simplest answer? This is not D&D/d20. The rules are written in English, not Rules Lawyer.

It depends. If you aren't using the Arsenal rulebook, 1) is correct, as guns don't have capacity. If you are using the arsenal rulebook, 2) Is correct. It takes up capacity, and you must install/have it installed and have access to a shop.

Funky things happen when rulebooks superceed previous ones, It isn't relevant to the discussion.

[Jaid]

If you want to get technical, you aren't buying the parts for a bulldog stepvan, you are buying a bulldog stepvan. You are buying the parts of modifications, you aren't buying for example, a bulldog stepvan with extra entry/exit points modified in it.

if i have all the parts for a bulldog stepvan, i still have a bulldog stepvan, it is simply arranged differently. apparently, since the rules don't say it explicitly, i must therefore be buying the parts for a bulldog stepvan. or possibly just one or more plots of land which contain the raw materials which i would require to build the individual components of a stepvan (after mining the land for said raw materials of course) which i would then have to personally assemble into the stepvan. i mean, the rules aren't specific that it's a fully assembled stepvan, apparently i must have to put it all together myself from the most basic form possible. [/sarcasm]

seriously, there are no rules for it. get over yourself and stop trying to tell us that your interpretation is the default one when there is no such default interpretation. you can make up whatever crap you want, that doesn't make it true.

[Tarantula]

if i have all the parts for a bulldog stepvan, i still have a bulldog stepvan, it is simply arranged differently. apparently, since the rules don't say it explicitly, i must therefore be buying the parts for a bulldog stepvan. or possibly just one or more plots of land which contain the raw materials which i would require to build the individual components of a stepvan (after mining the land for said raw materials of course) which i would then have to personally assemble into the stepvan. i mean, the rules aren't specific that it's a fully assembled stepvan, apparently i must have to put it all together myself from the most basic form possible. [/sarcasm]

Arsenal, 128, "All modification rules given in this book are based on the same basic principles. In order to modify a piece of equipment, a character needs the object itself as well as the plans, materials, and tools necessary to perform the modifications."

There you go, its explicit. If you want the equipment modified, you must meet those specifications. Since you can't meet those in chargen, you can't have chargen modified equipment.

[Cabral]

There you go, its explicit. If you want the equipment modified, you must meet those specifications. Since you can't meet those in chargen, you can't have chargen modified equipment.

No, it says how to modify a piece of equipment, not how to have a modded piece of equipment.

[Tarantula]

No, it says how to modify a piece of equipment, not how to have a modded piece of equipment.

Exactly. There is no rule for how to have a modded piece of equipment from chargen, thusly, by RAW, you can't have it.

[Mäx]

That line has fuck shit to do with the situation, becouse my character isn't modifying anything, she's walks into a gun store and tells the nice lady behind the counter what kind of a gun she needs and couple days layter she goes back to the shop pick up her new boomstick.

[Cardul]

Exactly. There is no rule for how to have a modded piece of equipment from chargen, thusly, by RAW, you can't have it.

No, there is a rule:
the same rule that says that PCs may not take an item of availability higher then 12, or a rating higher then 6 at Chargen, subject to GM's approval.

If the modification is not installed, then the PC does not have it. You do not need special rules to have something in chargen because they are already covered. Everything uses the same rules: No higher availability then 12, no rating higher then 6, GM can veto.

You focus so much on other rules, you miss that one. Now, considering there is no law thart says you can disagree with my argument, by your own stanted philosophical beliefe(you know..where you said "if nothing says you can, then you can't"), you MUST agree with me.

[Larme]

You guys are all arguing past each other. People seem mad that they can't have mods at chargen. But that's not what Tarantula is saying. He's just saying that the Rules, as Written, don't let you. Not that you can't change that! Who gives a damn about RAW? The rules, as written, if they rain on your parade, are not worth a soyburger in a mud puddle. (or something). You CAN start with mods. You SHOULD start with mods. You don't need the RAW's permission. Just make up the rules however you want them to work and go nucking futs already! This is not a situation where RAW being on your side is possible or necessary.

[Cardul]

You guys are all arguing past each other. People seem mad that they can't have mods at chargen. But that's not what Tarantula is saying. He's just saying that the Rules, as Written, don't let you. Not that you can't change that! Who gives a damn about RAW? The rules, as written, if they rain on your parade, are not worth a soyburger in a mud puddle. (or something). You CAN start with mods. You SHOULD start with mods. You don't need the RAW's permission. Just make up the rules however you want them to work and go nucking futs already! This is not a situation where RAW being on your side is possible or necessary.

Actually, they ARE on the side of allowing it. As I pointed out: Mods are just like any other gear with their own availability(and, in some cases, Ratings). You can, by the RAW, buy any gear at chargen that has an Availability lower then 12, and has a rating that does not exceed 6. Since, when you buy accessories, you do not have to install them yourself, we can conclude that Mods work the same way at Chargen. That said, like any gear at Chargen, mods are subject to GM approval.

Tarantula has stated, specifically, that if the RAW does not explicitly state every little thing, then what ever is not specifically mentioned cannot be done. I disagree. I am amazed that Tarantula's players have not lynched him, in fact, for requiring them to go out and get a gunsmith to install their accessories(since, IIRC, there is a roll and difficulty to install those) they bought at chargen. I would never play in one of his games because of his hard-arsed, absolutist, legalistic view of the rules. Sorry, but I hate rules lawyering to to a fascist rules interpretation that seems to be from one of Cain's evil GMs.

[Larme]

No, he's saying that if RAW does not provide rules for it, then you can't do while still following the RAW. He isn't saying you can't do it period. He's not saying you must always follow the RAW. He's just saying that if RAW doesn't give you rules to do something, and you do it anyway, you're deviating from the rules as written. So if you drink water, you need to make up your own rules, even if the rules are just "you drink the water successfully without rolling." That's not RAW. But it doesn't have to be. RAW doesn't forbid you from drinking water, but you can't drink water while following the RAW because there are no rules as written on how to drink. It's a pretty irrelevant point, and I'm sure he's chuckling about people bashing their faces in against this really obvious, inconsequential argument.

[Cabral]

Actually, they ARE on the side of allowing it. As I pointed out: Mods are just like any other gear with their own availability(and, in some cases, Ratings). You can, by the RAW, buy any gear at chargen that has an Availability lower then 12, and has a rating that does not exceed 6. Since, when you buy accessories, you do not have to install them yourself, we can conclude that Mods work the same way at Chargen. That said, like any gear at Chargen, mods are subject to GM approval.

Exactly. That is the RAW for purchasing mods at chargen, the fact that they are not reiterated in the mod section does not make them any less applicable.