Armor Rating in Chargen, Limited to 6? Options

[Cabral]

No, he's saying that if RAW does not provide rules for it, then you can't do while still following the RAW. He isn't saying you can't do it period. He's not saying you must always follow the RAW. He's just saying that if RAW doesn't give you rules to do something, and you do it anyway, you're deviating from the rules as written.

And my point, across several threads, is that the Rules as Written are written in English, not Rules Lawyer-speak and as such are not as explicit as keyword driven d20/D&D. RAW in Shadowrun cosists of common sense interpretation of the words in the book, not a literal one. The listing of prices and availability is sufficient RAW (in conjunction withe the rules on character creation) on how to buy a mod, preinstalled, at chargen.

The literal reading rules lawyering is in inappropriate, in general, with Shadowrun. That is not how the game was written. If you want double the volume for half the crunch so that things can be spelled out explicitly to your tastes (and this is not directed at Tarantula, or anyone else in particular), go convince some other game designer to do it. I like Shadowrun the way it is, warts and all.

[Fuchs]

Cyberware could probably be used as a precedent, and ruled that during character generation, the cost for installing a mod is included in the purchase cost for the part. (Installing body mods after chargen is not free either, if I recall correctly.)

[Tarantula]

Actually, they ARE on the side of allowing it. As I pointed out: Mods are just like any other gear with their own availability(and, in some cases, Ratings). You can, by the RAW, buy any gear at chargen that has an Availability lower then 12, and has a rating that does not exceed 6. Since, when you buy accessories, you do not have to install them yourself, we can conclude that Mods work the same way at Chargen. That said, like any gear at Chargen, mods are subject to GM approval.

Buying anything doesn't mean it explicitly comes installed. Just because you bought ammo doesn't mean its automatically loaded in the gun. Just because you buy a weapon accessory doesn't mean it is on the gun (though, since there is no test for either of those, its reasonable to assume they are done by the character shortly thereafter). Mods do not work the same way at chargen. The listings you are buying are the parts to make the modification. To actually modify the weapon, you need to follow the steps listed.

Tarantula has stated, specifically, that if the RAW does not explicitly state every little thing, then what ever is not specifically mentioned cannot be done. I disagree. I am amazed that Tarantula's players have not lynched him, in fact, for requiring them to go out and get a gunsmith to install their accessories(since, IIRC, there is a roll and difficulty to install those) they bought at chargen. I would never play in one of his games because of his hard-arsed, absolutist, legalistic view of the rules. Sorry, but I hate rules lawyering to to a fascist rules interpretation that seems to be from one of Cain's evil GMs.

To follow RAW, you can't do anything that isn't governed by the rules. This is a rules discussion, not a game, and as such, I will follow RAW for the discussion. I've never said I do as much in my own games.

Cyberware could probably be used as a precedent, and ruled that during character generation, the cost for installing a mod is included in the purchase cost for the part. (Installing body mods after chargen is not free either, if I recall correctly.)

I've addressed this already. Cyberware as gear was available before rules for costs to install it. The rules with costs for installing it are optional and thusly don't have to be followed. The rules for installing a modification are required if you want to have a modification. You can't have modifications without following the modification rules. The modification rules require you to pass a series of tests in order to successfully modify equipment. You can't make tests during chargen, so you can't have modifications installed at chargen by RAW.

[Fuchs]

The costs at chargen are abstract, not concrete. You do not have to have the nuyen for the gear you "buy" at chargen, you can get it as a gift, or even installed against your will. So, it should be feasible to assume that either the character had access to a shop (like he had access to a clinic for 'ware) in the past, or that someone gifted the piece to him.

Of course, it would be far easier to assume people do the sensible thing, and buy modded weapons, like we can do today.

[Tarantula]

The costs at chargen are abstract, not concrete. You do not have to have the nuyen for the gear you "buy" at chargen, you can get it as a gift, or even installed against your will. So, it should be feasible to assume that either the character had access to a shop (like he had access to a clinic for 'ware) in the past, or that someone gifted the piece to him.

Of course, it would be far easier to assume people do the sensible thing, and buy modded weapons, like we can do today.

Uhh, no, they are concrete. You can choose to explain it however you want, but if an item costs 1,000¥, and you only have 999¥ left, you can't have it. Period.

As far as 'ware goes, clinics are on street corners, and people can get a datajack or cybereyes on their lunch break. Also, the rules for installing 'ware are optional, and thusly, not required to have it. The rules for modifications are not, and must be followed if you want modifications.

You can buy weapons with built in mods, its called, the mods they come with and don't even count against their modification limit. Those are the ones with mods from the store. If you want different mods, you can't get it from a shop, at least, not by RAW.

[Fuchs]

You just said you can buy weapons with mods. That's important.

Also, Arsenal is optional. Why do you think one can't just pick the mods from it like one picks mods from the core book? Is there any line that specifically states you have to use the optional rules for installing mods if you simply want to use the mods like we use mods from core?

[Fuchs]

Uhh, no, they are concrete. You can choose to explain it however you want, but if an item costs 1,000¥, and you only have 999¥ left, you can't have it. Period.

As far as 'ware goes, clinics are on street corners, and people can get a datajack or cybereyes on their lunch break. Also, the rules for installing 'ware are optional, and thusly, not required to have it. The rules for modifications are not, and must be followed if you want modifications.

You can buy weapons with built in mods, its called, the mods they come with and don't even count against their modification limit. Those are the ones with mods from the store. If you want different mods, you can't get it from a shop, at least, not by RAW.

Abstract as in "Ressources spent during character generation, however, do not neccessarily reflect actual nuyen spent - if a character has something that would normally be out of her price range, it could be justified as a gift from a mysterious benefactor" (SR4 p. 63).

As long as you have the ressources, you can get an item. No reason you can't assume you got a mod. If there's no cost listed for having it installed, but you can buy it, then, according to this literal interpretation, installing it is free.

Otherwise, you are trying to use common sense to claim it has to cost something - and that would mean you'd have to accept common snese ruling that one buys it from a gunsmith shop.

[Tarantula]

You just said you can buy weapons with mods. That's important.

Also, Arsenal is optional. Why do you think one can't just pick the mods from it like one picks mods from the core book? Is there any line that specifically states you have to use the optional rules for installing mods if you simply want to use the mods like we use mods from core?

Arsenal is optional, sure. Modifications are in arsenal. If you aren't using arsenal, you don't have modifications. If you have modifications, the rules requiring them to be installed come with. You can pick and choose what rules you want to follow from which books, sure, but unless the rules list themselves as optional, then it isn't RAW.

I did say you can buy weapons with mods, but only the ones that are listed as coming with mods, and count as "unmodified" with their built in mods. There are no mods in the core book. There are accessories, which don't require tests to attach/remove (except for the smartlink, which explicitly says its test).

[Tarantula]

Abstract as in "Ressources spent during character generation, however, do not neccessarily reflect actual nuyen spent - if a character has something that would normally be out of her price range, it could be justified as a gift from a mysterious benefactor" (SR4 p. 63).

As long as you have the ressources, you can get an item. No reason you can't assume you got a mod. If there's no cost listed for having it installed, but you can buy it, then, according to this literal interpretation, installing it is free.

Otherwise, you are trying to use common sense to claim it has to cost something - and that would mean you'd have to accept common snese ruling that one buys it from a gunsmith shop.

Sure, except it can't be out of your price range. Your price range is determined by how many BP you put into resources. Justify it however you want.

Yes, you can buy a mod, thats fine. You can't install it during chargen, as there are a couple of skill rolls, and you can't make skill rolls in chargen. You can start with your SMG, and a gas vent 3 mod parts etc. You can't start with your SMG with a gas vent 3 installed unless it says it comes with one standard.

Actually, the examples in the modification section show that it costs something, both the plan, and the work if you don't do it yourself. Not to mention having access to a kit/shop/facility. And there is always the chance of critical failure during the installation.

[Fuchs]

Where does it say "If you play with mods, you have to use all the rules to install them as well"?

Optional rules are, by default, pick and choose. RAW does not prohibit you to pick the items, and skip the installment.

I'd even say that cybeware is a good precedent - you don't have to pick the cyberware installment rules to play with cyber.

[Nightwalker450]

I don't think either of these are really covered in the books. Whether they come with mods or not. Yes there are rules for installing it, but you are allowed to use guns put together by other people. There are rules for installing cyberware, but usually that has to be done by someone else. There's even prices for hospital stays, but these aren't payed for during chargen for your implants. We don't have prices for other people to install mods (but generally most places now charge about 10-15% of materials I believe).

Not allowing them to come built after paying resources is ok, if you want everyone to build their own, or if you want to handle it in game. It provides more character if you actually have to roll for building your gun.
Quick and easy and not require every gun wielding samurai to also be a master armourer to have his pimped out gun, you can have the come prebuilt.

I prefer my characters to not just "pop" into existance. They lived before now, so they could have had work done beforehand by someone else, or done it themselves. Same reason why I allow the skillgroups to be split in chargen, they had groups before, and then they broke them.

[Tarantula]

Where does it say "If you play with mods, you have to use all the rules to install them as well"?

Optional rules are, by default, pick and choose. RAW does not prohibit you to pick the items, and skip the installment.

I'd even say that cybeware is a good precedent - you don't have to pick the cyberware installment rules to play with cyber.

Except, that modifications aren't listed as an optional rule in arsenal. If you are using the arsenal rulebook, you get equipment modifications, their rules and all. Cyberware is not a good example, as the optional rules for installing it explicitly say they are optional. Aug, 120, "The basic rules presented in Shadowrun, Fourth Edition address the uses for First Aid and Medicine that characters need to clean up and mend themselves after a run. Groups are free to use any or all of the advanced rules in this chapter as they see fit to add further depth to various aspects of medical treatment and implantation."

I don't think either of these are really covered in the books. Whether they come with mods or not. Yes there are rules for installing it, but you are allowed to use guns put together by other people. There are rules for installing cyberware, but usually that has to be done by someone else. There's even prices for hospital stays, but these aren't payed for during chargen for your implants. We don't have prices for other people to install mods (but generally most places now charge about 10-15% of materials I believe).

Again, rules for installing cyberware are optional. If you want weapon mods, you HAVE to take the rules to install them by RAW.

Not allowing them to come built after paying resources is ok, if you want everyone to build their own, or if you want to handle it in game. It provides more character if you actually have to roll for building your gun.
Quick and easy and not require every gun wielding samurai to also be a master armourer to have his pimped out gun, you can have the come prebuilt.

I prefer my characters to not just "pop" into existance. They lived before now, so they could have had work done beforehand by someone else, or done it themselves. Same reason why I allow the skillgroups to be split in chargen, they had groups before, and then they broke them.

Sure, but you should pay out of your allocated resources ¥ to account for any of that. Its a non-specific resource. Whether you inherited all your stuff from your daddy, or not, you still have to "pay" with your resource nuyen.

[Fuchs]

Sure, except it can't be out of your price range. Your price range is determined by how many BP you put into resources. Justify it however you want.

Yes, you can buy a mod, thats fine. You can't install it during chargen, as there are a couple of skill rolls, and you can't make skill rolls in chargen. You can start with your SMG, and a gas vent 3 mod parts etc. You can't start with your SMG with a gas vent 3 installed unless it says it comes with one standard.

Uh... my SR4 book allows me to buy an SMG with an internal smartgun system at character generation (SR4, p. 311 f.). That's a mod, and it comes installed. Following that, you can buy weapons with other mods already installed as well. Tons of example characters use modded (smartlinked) weapons or with a silencer/suppressor, installed, as per the description.

[Tarantula]

Uh... my SR4 book allows me to buy an SMG with an internal smartgun system at character generation (SR4, p. 311 f.). That's a mod, and it comes installed. Following that, you can buy weapons with other mods already installed as well. Tons of example characters use modded (smartlinked) weapons or with a silencer/suppressor, installed, as per the description.

Its actually an accessory. Until you put arsenal with it, and arsenal replaces it to be a modification, with the modification rules.

Accessories don't take a test to install, so silencer/suppressors etc don't have to come pre-installed, because putting on is as simple as saying "i put on the silencer".

As I said, an external smartlink accessory takes a test, which is explicitly mentioned in its description, there is no mention of a way to avoid this test, so you would have to have it come uninstalled, and then succeed at the test to install it after chargen.

[Fuchs]

And no, you do not have to use optional rules as a whole. Arsenal, p. 128: "the gamemaster and his group can go to any level of complexity when it comes to describing the acquiring of parts and implementation of one's ideas. When it comes down to the rules, however, we suggest you use what's presented here"

[Tarantula]

And no, you do not have to use optional rules as a whole. Arsenal, p. 128: "the gamemaster and his group can go to any level of complexity when it comes to describing the acquiring of parts and implementation of one's ideas. When it comes down to the rules, however, we suggest you use what's presented here"

Yes, but if you don't use it, it isn't RAW.

Also, its complexity of describing the acquiring of parts. Not the actual attaching the parts to the weapon. Describe it all you want, it doesn't come pre-attached.

[Fuchs]

Its actually an accessory. Until you put arsenal with it, and arsenal replaces it to be a modification, with the modification rules.

Accessories don't take a test to install, so silencer/suppressors etc don't have to come pre-installed, because putting on is as simple as saying "i put on the silencer".

As I said, an external smartlink accessory takes a test, which is explicitly mentioned in its description, there is no mention of a way to avoid this test, so you would have to have it come uninstalled, and then succeed at the test to install it after chargen.

Are you claiming that we cannot buy weapons modded with internal smartlinks at character generation even though SR4 directly says you can?

[Fuchs]

Yes, but if you don't use it, it isn't RAW.

Also, its complexity of describing the acquiring of parts. Not the actual attaching the parts to the weapon. Describe it all you want, it doesn't come pre-attached.

Sure it comes:

Player: "I buy the weapon with that mod installed".

DM: "Ok."

[Tarantula]

Are you claiming that we cannot buy weapons modded with internal smartlinks at character generation even though SR4 directly says you can?

I'm saying that if you are using arsenal, you can't, because arsenal replaces the listing in SR4 with its own, which then follows the modifications rules. If you are not using arsenal, then SR4 applies, and you can.

[Fuchs]

Where does it say that you have to use Arsenal instead of the corebook?

It suggests to use the Arsenal rules for installing, but it doesn't require it. And since SR4 BBB is RAW, you can use those rules still, and remain RAW.

[Tarantula]

Where does it say that you have to use Arsenal instead of the corebook?

It suggests to use the Arsenal rules for installing, but it doesn't require it. And since SR4 BBB is RAW, you can use those rules still, and remain RAW.

Arsenal, 153, "Smartgun System: This modification is the internal version of the smartgun system (pp. 311–312, SR4)."

Since the modification rules cover all the modifications, and the internal smartgun is one, it needs to be installed.

The alternate interpretation, is that since it is the only modification with text that explicitly allows it to be installed at chargen, it is the ONLY modification you can start with at chargen. Which I could buy also, being that internal smartlink would probably be the most common modification done, and thus would be available for any weapon.

[Larme]

And my point, across several threads, is that the Rules as Written are written in English, not Rules Lawyer-speak and as such are not as explicit as keyword driven d20/D&D. RAW in Shadowrun cosists of common sense interpretation of the words in the book, not a literal one. The listing of prices and availability is sufficient RAW (in conjunction withe the rules on character creation) on how to buy a mod, preinstalled, at chargen.

The literal reading rules lawyering is in inappropriate, in general, with Shadowrun. That is not how the game was written. If you want double the volume for half the crunch so that things can be spelled out explicitly to your tastes (and this is not directed at Tarantula, or anyone else in particular), go convince some other game designer to do it. I like Shadowrun the way it is, warts and all.

Ok, so we're not debating what the rules are. We're debating what you call it when you make an assumption that's based on the rules, but is not explicitly stated in them. WHY ARE WE DEBATING THAT? It matters not one whit whether you call it "following the RAW" or not. Both sides agree that is a good and appropriate thing to do, so the only disagreement is about worthless semantics. It hurts my heart to have this discussion keep on beating a dead horse that was irrelevant to begin with. You hear me? You guys are beating THE WRONG DEAD HORSE!

[Tarantula]

WHY ARE WE DEBATING THAT?

Because I enjoy it.

[Larme]

You've had enough enjoyment! You're going to give me an aneurism! You want that on your conscience? Do you???

[Tarantula]

You've had enough enjoyment! You're going to give me an aneurism! You want that on your conscience? Do you???

There is no such thing as enough enjoyment. As far as your anneurisms are concerned, maybe you should stop taking it so personally/seriously. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)