Brand friggin new to the game, I got a question, Game questions Options

[Raavek]

And here I am trying to be a GM/DM/ST/whatever you call it in Shadowrun. I have played Vampire 2nd edition for a while, so I am pretty familiar with that style of playing.

My question entails combat. From the playtesting me and another guy did, it seemed like the damage was a bit way too uber. He used his character, and I used a couple templates from the book, street shaman and weapons specalist to be exact.

His mage basically destroyed the street shaman, force 2, in 2 hits, and the weapons specalist destoryed him in 1 shot.

Here is my question.

During combat, when actually firing a pistol/spell/whatever, does it go like this:

Roll to see hit -> roll to see dodge --> take weapon/spell damage and roll to see how much damage is negated

Or does it go like this

Roll to see hit -> roll to see dodge --> roll amount of weapon damage to see total damage -> roll body+armor+whatever to negate THAT damage.

I dunno if that is clear enough, so here is a scenario:

I shoot with a 8p weapon. I score 2 hits. (boosting it to 10p) he negates nothing with his dodge.

scenario 1: He rolls and negates 2 of that damage with body/armor, taking 8P damage (yeouch)

scenario 2: I roll 10 dices to calculate damage, I get 4 successes, he rolls against 4 successes with his body and armor, scores 2 hits, so he only takes 2P damage

With the way we *think* it works...they will be rolling a lot of characters...

[Muspellsheimr]

While dodging, the defender's hits reduces the attackers hits (not damage). If the attacker scores 0 net (more) hits over the defender, the defender avoids the attack completely. You can only dodge attacks you are aware of. Any you are not are a success test for the attacker instead of opposed, making sniping especially deadly.

If the attack hits (attacker scores at least one more hit than the defender), any net hits are added to the damage value, and the defender rolls Body+Armor. The damage is reduced by one per hit on the resistance test. The damage value is not a new dice pool, as it is in some World of Darkness games.

In the case of Direct combat spells, the defender rolls Willpower to 'dodge' the attack, and does not receive a damage resistance test. If they get hit, they take it all.

Tactical combat is very important in Shadowrun, as the damage can easily add up and kill quickly.

[Zak]

And don't forget to add in dice pool modifications. Looks quite complicated at the start, but once you are through a few combats it works fine.

[Jaid]

shadowrun combat has been described as being somewhat like a bunch of egshells running around with hammers. it's a design feature, not a flaw (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

in short, the combat system is designed to make it so that you want to minimise combat if you want to survive... it is not designed so that the characters can go toe-to-toe with a tank and be just as tough. if you wish to not die in shadowrun, you need to either:

1) not get shot at, by not drawing attention

2) have a really good dodge pool, so you are very hard to hit. (using cover etc works to help this)

3) have an obscenely large amount of damage soak dice.

[Stahlseele]

be happy about playing SR4 . . if you haven't played SR3, 4 is the best way to get started and there is not that much ammount of damage around, at least in Close-Combat . .
in your example let's give the guy being shot at the knowledge of being shot at and let him have attribute and skill 4 for doge, so he gets 8 dice or so . . if he scores more hits than the attacker, the attack misses and he takes 0 damage if i understood that right . . if he gets one less hit than the attacker, the attack only gets +1 to damage and the target gets to roll body + armor to negate the new damage as far as he manages . .

granted there ARE builds that will deal huge ammounts of damage over short time . . and others that can soak it all and laugh about the pebbles being thrown at them . . but those are more or less the extreme cases . . well, aside from magic, that one is usually more or less the hardest to resist . .

[sunnyside]

Yup most players in SR are glass hammers.

Personally when I start a new group the first thing I do is have an NPC decker/hacker run a "simulation" where they get to fight each other. Usually this is a lot of fun, but it knock them out of the mindset they may have gotten from other RPGs that their characters are star trek ships with shields that can take a pounding instead of fleshy people who do not deal well with shotgun shells going through them.


Remember the game is called "shadowrun" not "stand 'n shoot"

A couple things to remember though that mitigate this that you might not have noticed in the rules yet.

-while runner type characters can get lots of successes, most grunts aren't rolling all that many dice
-smart players keep situations in their favor. There are lots of target modifiers and they can seriously hamper an attacker
- Full defense. If you players are wise and get dodge/gymnastics if a baddie gets the drop on them with a good weapon they can sacrifice their next action for a fair chance of not getting hit, at the least this should reduce successes
- Armor converts many sources of damage to stun. When baddies are fireing off on full auto they may do a a dozen boxes of damage, but the character will often just be knocked out. Personally if you think players need to learn about SR use machine pistols with fletchet ammo and folding stocks/gas vent 3's. It'll almost always be stun damage, but with long bursts it'll still knock their socks off.
-knockdown. At first this seems to be a bad thing for a wounded character. But when someone goes down people tend to shoot at the guy that's still standing and is about to shoot them. So instead of hitting someone for 8 damage and then hitting them again for 8, killing them, they'll hit them for 8 and the player will be thrown to the ground, and somebody else gets shot next. The wounded character can then crawl off.
-in the errata the lethality of ammo went down a little. check that out
-edge. It's great to have, and can add a bunch of dice when players really need to dodge an attack or soak some damage.


And finally, the thing that really prevents torn character sheets.

You can permaburn edge to stay alive. When the player walks into the snipers scope and all the dice come up "you're toast" you burn a point of edge permanently and something cinimatic happens (maybe the player trips as the sniper pulls the trigger).


Personally I think you'll come to enjoy the lethal gameplay. It keeps tension high, players acting smart, and means you can get through combats quick. Though for my tastes I rather like there being more damage overflow, but high body stats help here.

[Raavek]

Wow wow and wow. I didn't expect to get nearly that many replies back so soon, which kind of brings another question to mind... is Shadowrun that popular? Maybe just my location (Kansas City) is craptastic for any game that doesn't start with Dungeon or reside in a World of Darkness.

Personally I love the setting of Shadowrun, but I am a total scifi dweeb.

Anyways, back for some more questions...

I had this idea when I first told everyone that I was going to run a Shadowrun compaign, and I dunno, it might be a doubleedged sword, but let me know what you guys think.

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I told everyone not to worry at all about resources. I will provide them (and they will be light at first) The reason I thought about doing it this way is because:

Everyone in the group are brand new to Shadowrun, but everyone also played Vampire, so we have tabletop experience.

I want to slowly bring everyone up to speed on how the game works (myself included)

I think that if they start with less resources (thus less gear i *think*, not sure) then they will have better stats, thus equally balancing it out. (maybe) I was going to provide them with starting gear and something for their *class* I guess you could call it (Like if someone is obviously building a Rigger, giving them a drone, a Decker/Hacker, maybe a datajack with upgraded OS, etc etc)

Bring everyone up to par. New players to the game, new runners to the life of a Shadowrunner basically.

Help me with balancing.

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************

Although I do see an issue with this however. The person who wants to be a mage in the group is looking like he is going to start off more powerful than everyone else.

I dunno. thoughts, suggestions, ideas?

[Larme]

If everyone is really clueless, I'd just hand them copies of the sample characters from the main book and let them pick their favorite archetype. The samples are pretty good, but not very uber, and they definitely teach you what each archetype is all about. Once people play a little bit and get a feel for it, then will know what they want and they will be able to make their own characters, and you won't have to go monkeying with starting resources. Honestly, if you don't know what you're doing, I don't think you're likely to come up with limits on chargen that end up being fair and balanced. The real problem with limiting resources is that mages and adepts will become better, while mundane characters will get boned.

Though I must say, I'm impressed that people can play D&D and Vampire in Kansas without being picketed for committing the sin of sorcery (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) *hides*

[Aaron]

Don't forget that you're almost never in ideal conditions in combat. My players are on the verge of assaulting a relatively intact house in Redmond. It's dark (it's the barrens at night) and drizzling (it's Seattle, duh). The current visibility modifiers are -8 for natural vision, -7 for low-light, -3 for thermographic, and -4 for ultrasound.

[Aaron]

Oh, and see if this helps: http://pavao.org/shadowrun/cheatsheets/SR4Ranged.pdf.

[the_dunner]

If everyone is really clueless, I'd just hand them copies of the sample characters from the main book and let them pick their favorite archetype.

QFT!

Also consider just running them through the brief scenario, using the characters provided with the Quick Start Rules. You might have the players also download the Players version of the QSR. As it provides a basic run through of the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sunnyside]

Wow wow and wow. I didn't expect to get nearly that many replies back so soon, which kind of brings another question to mind... is Shadowrun that popular? Maybe just my location (Kansas City) is craptastic for any game that doesn't start with Dungeon or reside in a World of Darkness.

I'm not sure. But I suspect that it's the #3 pen and paper RPG franchise out there, or at least was back when I was more in the scene.

I don't know about just controlling resources though. Like people have said, that won't affect mages or adepts much, but would seriously gimp sammies and such. You could, of course, simply restrict them via low magic scores.

I will suggest you or your players do yourselves a favor and have all the hackers stuff at the same rating to make life easy.


Oh and if you're not sure about running the game there are a bunch of free adventures put out
http://shadowrun4.com/missions/downloads/

I run my own stuff, but I read through a few and they aren't bad.

[vladski]

Wow wow and wow. I didn't expect to get nearly that many replies back so soon, which kind of brings another question to mind... is Shadowrun that popular? Maybe just my location (Kansas City) is craptastic for any game that doesn't start with Dungeon or reside in a World of Darkness.

Personally I love the setting of Shadowrun, but I am a total scifi dweeb.

Anyways, back for some more questions...

I had this idea when I first told everyone that I was going to run a Shadowrun compaign, and I dunno, it might be a doubleedged sword, but let me know what you guys think.

********************************************************************************
************
I told everyone not to worry at all about resources. I will provide them (and they will be light at first) The reason I thought about doing it this way is because:

Everyone in the group are brand new to Shadowrun, but everyone also played Vampire, so we have tabletop experience.

I want to slowly bring everyone up to speed on how the game works (myself included)

I think that if they start with less resources (thus less gear i *think*, not sure) then they will have better stats, thus equally balancing it out. (maybe) I was going to provide them with starting gear and something for their *class* I guess you could call it (Like if someone is obviously building a Rigger, giving them a drone, a Decker/Hacker, maybe a datajack with upgraded OS, etc etc)

Bring everyone up to par. New players to the game, new runners to the life of a Shadowrunner basically.

Help me with balancing.

********************************************************************************
************

Although I do see an issue with this however. The person who wants to be a mage in the group is looking like he is going to start off more powerful than everyone else.

I dunno. thoughts, suggestions, ideas?

Welcome to Shadowrun (and Dumpshock) Chummer!

Unless you really have a feel for the nuances of character building within SR4, doing what you are doing with Resources is a bad, bad idea.

Building a character in SR4 is really not htat hard. I'd recommend looking at the Sample Characters. Do a few mock combats with them against Grunts (not each other) as detailed on 272-276 of the BBB (Big Black Book=Core Rule Book). Also, if you have riggers or hackers, I'd recommend playing around with that as well. But lets jsut stay with Combat to begin with.

Once you have a feel for how combat goes against assorted foes, then your players will have a much better idea about how to build a character. Maybe improvements they'd like to make over the Samples. I guarrantee that most will definitely want ot make changes.

The thing is, for as much as we like to bicker on here about this not being balanced or that not being balanced, Shadowrun 4th Ed. is an incredibley balanced game all the way down to character design. Gear purchases are as intergral to building a Runner as selecting his stats and his skills. For many characters, the gear is as important, if not more important than the actual numbers comprising the character. If you allow characters to really beef up their stats because you don't have to worry about using points to buy stuff, then you will miss out on half the fun of Running. The characters will be too strong. You will have the equivilant of running the High-end 500 point optional build game characters. Unless you are an experienced GM of Shadowrun, they will be VERY hard to deal with and challenge.

My advice... run a complete mock session using hte Sample characters. Encourage players to take an archtype that they may be interested in playing. Run a simple mission involving a couple different kinds of combat: some melee, some ranged. To get hte players into it, announce that if htey survive the run, you will allow each character a special, one time only Edge point they get to add to their character that will burn out on use and not refresh.

Then, have them design characters. Now that they already have a feel for the mechanics by playing, they should be able to build playable characters with a little help and referring to the Samples for examples. I would also recommend sticking with only the BBB to build these start up characters. No gear or special things from any of the other books. There's plenty of time to get to most of that later.

And, remember, you are here to have fun. that is priority one! It's a new game system to you all. I would allow any person that was really disatisfied with their character after the first real run to "adjust" that character to the point of being a complete re-build if necessary. Playing a character that doesn;t turn out to be what you imagine him to be at creation is no fun at all. The official gaming group of Shadowrun, Shadowrun Missions, basically does this when you start an official character for tourney play. It's a very wise option in my book.

Welcome again to the Shadows, omae.

May your ammo always be dry, your drain always resisted and never, ever, deal with a dragon.

Unless, you know, he's got some really wiz ware and an offer too good to refuse. What, you wanna live forever?

Vlad

[toturi]

I agree. Run a mock combat first and go through the character creation first, then add in your own house rules if you wish. You and your group are the best judge of what is fun for you.

[weblife]

Welcome.

And I'd like to add that I think the SR community here at DumpShock is very good at being active and friendly. Bigger games are either completely inactive, or filled with spammers and trashtalking. - IMO.

I'm particularly impressed with the activity levels here.

And its not bad that some of the writers frequent these forums either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Synner]

I'm going to say this because its the single most counter-intuitive element of SR4 Combat to people coming from other games (and from previous editions of Shadowrun): don't restrain yourself from piling on the cover, visibility, and movement modifiers listed in SR4—even if this means pushing the attacking characters' (PCs and NPCs) dicepool to 0.

Yes, I know it's counter-intuitive, but note that this doesn't mean the character cannot shoot, all it means is that at that particular moment, circumstances dictate that the character has no or next to no chance of hitting the target if he does shoot (without getting lucky, which is what Edge is for). If he doesn't want to waste rounds (and Edge), all he has to do is either hold his action (until situational modifiers change offering him/her a better chance to hit) or indulge in suppressive fire. Only high-noon duels on the mainstreet should be devoid of situational modifiers. Combat is a tactical exercise, not a hackfest in empty dungeon corridors.

Note all of the above is equally (if not more so) true for cover and visibility modifiers to Spellcasting in Combat. Those spellcasting dice pools of 13 look a lot different when you realize that even "good cover" takes -4 dice from that, partial light (such as on a street at night or a carpark) can knock another 2 dice off, the spellcaster keeping to cover decreases that by (another) -1 die, and other visibility modifiers like rain, fog, glare, and smoke grenades all potentially reduce the dice pools further.

[Cantankerous]

Welcome. Oh boy. I'm an old VtM affecianado too and while the two systems may look similar...they aren't. Did you ever play HtR? The Hunters were a closer simile. Even though they aren't as liable to remember that guns kill as in this game, they were glass hammers too.

When pulling out the templates, remember that they do tend to have resource capabilities that are pretty standard, so if you are going resource light, in this game the light resource PCs SHOULD get run over like frogs on a highway. Resources here can REALLY be king. Nice stats are all well and good...and if the PCs live long enough to get some resources, they'll be monsters later, but THAT is part of the balance mechanism and in Shadowrun you ALWAYS have to keep an eye to balance lest ye have a runaway power spiral or an under power spiral sneak up and bite you in the duff.

The system is FABULOUS once you get the Players used to the fact that this isn't D&D, and that they themselves aren't super natural creatures (or any more supernatural than any one else in the big time if they are shape changers or something (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) either and that technology is KING in the 2070s. For technology you need resources... so if you don't have them well resourced at the start, be sure to knock down the early levels of competition somewhat... or not, but then be ready when they loose a character, or two, per session.

One of the things I always loved most about this game was that a simple soldier with a decent amount of experience and very standard weapons is NOT what he is in other RPGs, canon fodder, but rather here IS one of the typical templates for a Runner's past.


Isshia

[Drogos]

Pretty much what everyone said is true. It cannot be stressed enough how important buying gear is to any character but especially starting characters where you have the options laid out in front of you. It's an integral part of building any character. I concur with using the archetypes presented on the full color pages of the main book as your first cast of characters. Use those for a couple sessions (I'd say 3 just so you can get used to how to run the game a bit). And every edition of Shadowrun is DEADLY, just like all of Vampire is Gothic. It is how the games were designed. If you found your group getting into numerous combat encounters in Vampire, you'll love SR because the system for combat is far more integrated than Vampire is. Good luck with it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And before you run, read the whole book... then read the chapters titled Game Concepts, Creating a Shadowrunner, Skills, Combat, The Awakened World (if you have magic users or like magic), The Wireless World (if you have hackers/riggers or want to use the Matrix a bit), and Running the Shadows until you feel really comfortable with them. Creating a Shadowrunner can wait until you make characters withthe players if you decide to follow everyone's advice and use the templates for the first couple times. I agree allowing them to carry over some sort of reward for doing the first couple of sessions well or what not as well. If you do this, you will have no trouble with helping your players into the shadows, but it is not necessary if they are a patient group willing to learn along with you. Eventually, you'll want to read these sections over and over and over and over and over and over again...at least, that's what I did/do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (Bold for emphasis of importance)

[Tarantula]

Don't forget that you're almost never in ideal conditions in combat. My players are on the verge of assaulting a relatively intact house in Redmond. It's dark (it's the barrens at night) and drizzling (it's Seattle, duh). The current visibility modifiers are -8 for natural vision, -7 for low-light, -3 for thermographic, and -4 for ultrasound.

What? How can you possibly get more modifiers than -6 for any viability modifier? -6 is full darkness.

[Stahlseele]

yeah, only highest modifier counts if i ain't wrong . .

[Shiloh]

yeah, only highest modifier counts if i ain't wrong . .

IIRC, that one's a "keeping it simple" rule to avoid the old wargamey "going through the list" "+1 charging, +1 opponent shieldless, -1 opponent uphill, -1 enemies to rear..." Ah, those were the days. It suggests, I believe, that you might take the highest mod and maybe add a fudge factor of 1 or 2 if things are really in the way.

As to whether you can get worse than "dark", it depends whether you mean dark like night or dark like a coalmine... A rainy night has much more difficult seeing conditions than just a cloudy one. Add smoke and you're effectively blind without augmentations. And, having been in a mine with the lights out, -6 ain't enough of a penalty... just moving about is difficult.

[Tarantula]

Being in a mine with no lights in -6. The modifier is called "Total Darkness". Its as good as shutting your eyes.

[Fortune]

Being in a mine with no lights in -6. The modifier is called "Total Darkness". Its as good as shutting your eyes.

And then cover and/or movement can modify that even further. I don't see the problem.

[Shiloh]

And then cover and/or movement can modify that even further. I don't see the problem.

The problem Tarantula has identified is that the modifiers Aaron had were *vision* modifiers and "no vision" (i.e. perfect darkness) is -6. Making it rain in perfect darkness won't make it any harder for an unaugmented person to see, since they can't see anyway. So -8 is flawed somehow. I reckon Aaron is calling "a dark night" -6 and maybe it should be more like -5 or -4 in Tarantula's eyes.

Nevertheless, the point stands that vision and cover modifiers are an integral part of making the combat system a bit less glass-hammery.

[Cantankerous]

Nevertheless, the point stands that vision and cover modifiers are an integral part of making the combat system a bit less glass-hammery.

But only a little...and only while they are in place. If a Ganger pops a cap in your fizz while you're stuffing it with pasta with your mafia torpedo contact you can feel awfully fragile even if you're a nine foot tall six hundred pound troll Sammy who is usually mostly definitely hammery.


Isshia