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Thanos007
post Apr 26 2008, 11:28 AM
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Do the current initiative rules make sense, in a real world way, to you? I’m used to the 1st and 2nd edition rules where cyber, spells, what have you not only made you fast but if you were fast enough you could to 2 (or 3) things before someone slower. I could see that. Heck I’ve experienced it. I’m curious about what everyone else thinks.
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Kerberos
post Apr 26 2008, 11:32 AM
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QUOTE (Thanos007 @ Apr 26 2008, 06:28 AM) *
Do the current initiative rules make sense, in a real world way, to you? I’m used to the 1st and 2nd edition rules where cyber, spells, what have you not only made you fast but if you were fast enough you could to 2 (or 3) things before someone slower. I could see that. Heck I’ve experienced it. I’m curious about what everyone else thinks.

IMO the earlier rules made better sense, but these aren't quite so random or unbalanced in favour of people with multiple IPs. I like the current ones better, but YMMV.
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Fortune
post Apr 26 2008, 11:55 AM
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The old rules better reflected reality (not necessarily mirroring it exactly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ), but were not as much fun to use for those players who had characters with fewer Initiative Passes.
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Critias
post Apr 26 2008, 12:41 PM
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SR3 and 4 are just clear-cut cases of "game balance" overruling "game reason." *shrugs* It happens.
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XON2000
post Apr 26 2008, 01:37 PM
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I doubt it was solely an issue of balance. As Fortune said, the game simply wasn't as much fun for players whose characters were slower than others. I remember trying to convince a guy to join an SR game I was trying to put together (this would have been 1st or 2nd edition) and he just wasn't interested because in his single previous experience with the game, he was in a fight that was over before he had a chance to move.

The old initiative system also means that if you have a PC with wired reflexes, he's only going to be challenged by similarly enhanced enemies, or ridiculously large groups. Since SR4 is going for a more "street level" feel, it makes sense to scale back the super-heroics a bit.
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bjorn
post Apr 26 2008, 01:48 PM
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I'd have to agree; The new rules are less real than previous editions, but I like that everyone basically gets to go once before the combat could possibly be over.
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ElFenrir
post Apr 26 2008, 02:56 PM
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Just in my opinion-i think SR3 had hit the sweet spot when it came it Initative. They changed the fact the Wired 3 guy went 13 times before everyone else-but he still got to go alot; indeed. And he probably went first-then others went, then he went-then maybe the middlespeed person went, then Crazyspeed guy got to finish out his turns.

I also liked how someone, with no ware, no drugs, and no Karma usage could get more than one pass. It wasn't a guarentee, but it could happen.

SR4's not a bad initative system though, but personally im considering one of the several houserules i read that allow X number of hits maybe adding an extra pass for a totally mundane person, without burning Edge. But yeah...I agree it was ''Fun'' vs. ''Realism'' at stake, and ''Fun'' won out, as well it should. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Synner
post Apr 26 2008, 08:13 PM
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I will note that the SR4 system does have one exceptionally easy tweak for those of you who prefer the old "faster initiative gets multiple actions before everyone else" system of SR1-2. Simply invert the order Initiative Passes are resolved. First resolve actions for anyone who has 4 IPs and then everyone who has 3 IPs, and work backward until you get to everyone who only had 1 IP. Initiative Rolls within IPs remain the same.

The aforementioned "problem" with SR1-2 meant that combat resolution was all too often entirely dependent on Wired/Boosted/Augmented/magiced Initiatives and forced players into an Initiative boosting arms race to remain competitive and even participate in combat. As is the SR4 system still favors Initiative boosting since characters with more than 1 Initiative Pass are at a marked advantage when Full Defense is pretty commonplace as a response.
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Zen Shooter01
post Apr 26 2008, 08:29 PM
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I like 4th edition initiative better, no question. Enhanced characters go first, last, and more often, but 1 IP isn't priced straight out of the gunfight.

A side effect is it makes the game more varied. In 2nd edition, every street samurai looked the same - all the initiative enhancement he could afford, plus a few other bits. In 4th, you can be competitive with Wired 1, which gives the samurai the chance to vary his other implants more.
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deek
post Apr 28 2008, 01:54 PM
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QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Apr 26 2008, 03:29 PM) *
I like 4th edition initiative better, no question. Enhanced characters go first, last, and more often, but 1 IP isn't priced straight out of the gunfight.

A side effect is it makes the game more varied. In 2nd edition, every street samurai looked the same - all the initiative enhancement he could afford, plus a few other bits. In 4th, you can be competitive with Wired 1, which gives the samurai the chance to vary his other implants more.

Not only competitive with Wired 1, but anyone that is willing to pop some drugs or spend some edge for additional actions makes a really big difference.

The only edition I haven't played is 3rd. With that being said, I like SR4 initiative by far.
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Ed_209a
post Apr 28 2008, 03:30 PM
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I like 4E, but I miss the way a highly trained, but non-augmented char could still get 2 passes reasonably often.

7 +1d6 would give a second pass 50% of the time. I am rusty on 3E rules, how special would an init(reaction?) of 7 be?
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Nightwalker450
post Apr 28 2008, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Apr 28 2008, 10:30 AM) *
I like 4E, but I miss the way a highly trained, but non-augmented char could still get 2 passes reasonably often.

7 +1d6 would give a second pass 50% of the time. I am rusty on 3E rules, how special would an init(reaction?) of 7 be?


I would like some way for a mundane to get a second pass a reasonable amount of the time. I know they can use edge, but I want a quick person, not a lucky person. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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ArkonC
post Apr 28 2008, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 28 2008, 04:32 PM) *
I would like some way for a mundane to get a second pass a reasonable amount of the time. I know they can use edge, but I want a quick person, not a lucky person. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

You could still do this, just assume if someone rolls an init of 15 (or whatever arbitrary number you feel is appropriate) gets and extra action...
We have been talking about making extra action at init -4 or 5 per IP, and do away with the passes...
Meaning if someone with 2 IPs rolled 10, he would get his second IP at 5...
Someone with 4 IPs who rolled 17 would get his actions on 13, 8, 3 and -2...
Not sure how smoothly this would work, since it hasn't gotten past it's theoretical stage...
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deek
post Apr 28 2008, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 28 2008, 10:32 AM) *
I would like some way for a mundane to get a second pass a reasonable amount of the time. I know they can use edge, but I want a quick person, not a lucky person. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I refresh edge every 24 hours at my table. It works out well. Granted, I've never had a player use edge for initiative. Its either been to reroll a failed test (in a critical situation) or to add some extra power behind an attack. I keep telling my players (especially the ones with 3 or 4 edge) that they should use it more often, but for some reason they just don't.
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WeaverMount
post Apr 28 2008, 07:15 PM
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>I refresh edge every 24 hours at my table. It works out well.
If I did that at my table and didn't keep them CONSTANTLY on the run they would conquer the earth in a month by turning all that edge into overcast bound spirits, more than doubling there money crafting and negotiating.
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ElFenrir
post Apr 28 2008, 07:20 PM
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I considered a rough bit where you might could trade in some of your Initative score for an extra pass. I dunno how it't work in practice-i'd have to try. But say someone ended up with a 14 Initative(not impossible for someone sporting a 10 or 11 initative.) I might make it so every 4 Initative they 'trade in' they can get an extra pass. So they could go on 10-but they'd get two passes. Or hell, they can go on 6 but have 3 passes.

The only thing is there is nothing stopping someone with Wired 2 from getting 4 passes every time. It COULD be something that you have to have no extra passes to do(they had an Edge in SR3 that gave you lightning reflexes I recall-but you couldn't have any Initative enhancement to take it.) Maybe the maximum passes this works up to is 3-which means someone who already has 3 passes wouldn't benefit.

Or, hell, Im thinking a Positive quality that lets someone with only 1 pass(i'd allow Reaction enhancements, since there isn't too many ways to increase it), do the 'Initative Trade' and call it some sort of lightning initative. It might be a 10 or 15 point quality(i'd say 15), but it might be worth looking at. If it doesn't work(maybe test it in a one-shot), i can ditch it and pretend I never made it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Nightwalker450
post Apr 28 2008, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE (deek @ Apr 28 2008, 01:43 PM) *
I refresh edge every 24 hours at my table. It works out well. Granted, I've never had a player use edge for initiative. Its either been to reroll a failed test (in a critical situation) or to add some extra power behind an attack. I keep telling my players (especially the ones with 3 or 4 edge) that they should use it more often, but for some reason they just don't.


I'm not a fan of that idea. Then it seems like too much edge for people. We refresh ours at the beginning of each session, unless there's an obvious break point in the middle that works for refreshing.

I've thought of adding a quality as well to give 1 extra initiative pass, that wouldn't stack with anything (except possibly combat drugs). 15 or 20 points I believe is what I reached for an idea of how costly it would be. 16 BP for synaptic boosters, 15 BP for Adept with 1 additional pass, 20 BP for mystic Adept, 18 BP for mage...
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Aaron
post Apr 28 2008, 07:27 PM
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QUOTE (ArkonC @ Apr 28 2008, 09:45 AM) *
You could still do this, just assume if someone rolls an init of 15 (or whatever arbitrary number you feel is appropriate) gets and extra action...
We have been talking about making extra action at init -4 or 5 per IP, and do away with the passes...
Meaning if someone with 2 IPs rolled 10, he would get his second IP at 5...
Someone with 4 IPs who rolled 17 would get his actions on 13, 8, 3 and -2...
Not sure how smoothly this would work, since it hasn't gotten past it's theoretical stage...

Actually, it might work better, at least as far as giving the slower folks a shot at getting a pass before the faster folks' second IP, to halve the initiative total after each pass (round up). So your example person would get actions at 17, 9, 5, and 3.

Plus, you can't go into negatives.
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deek
post Apr 28 2008, 07:46 PM
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I'm certainly not saying it will work at every table (edge refresh of 24 hours), but it has been working at ours. I can't do it every session, mainly because, using 2 sessions ago as an example, we only moved 2 hours in game time during our normal bi-weekly 4 hour session. Sometimes, it may take a few sessions to even progress 24 hours.

And I don't allow edge during downtime, so I don't fear the mages will take over the world:)

Granted, my players, for some reason, never want to use their edge. They seem to save it in case something bad happens. I mean, everyone has used it in game, but its either been reacting to a bad roll or once or twice, really wanting to make a big attack...with this being the case, every 24 hours seems to work.

Now I do think, that players should have a very firm understanding of when edge refresh is going to happen. Otherwise, they may never use it.

On NPCs, especially mooks, I am always using up their edge (normally for more IPs) because I know they are likely dead once they get into a fight. And if I was a player, I'd probably blow it too if I thought I was gonna be gunned down. No reason to save it for a future battle if I'm gonna be dead.
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vladski
post Apr 28 2008, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE (ArkonC @ Apr 28 2008, 10:45 AM) *
You could still do this, just assume if someone rolls an init of 15 (or whatever arbitrary number you feel is appropriate) gets and extra action...
We have been talking about making extra action at init -4 or 5 per IP, and do away with the passes...
Meaning if someone with 2 IPs rolled 10, he would get his second IP at 5...
Someone with 4 IPs who rolled 17 would get his actions on 13, 8, 3 and -2...
Not sure how smoothly this would work, since it hasn't gotten past it's theoretical stage...


Here's what I did a while back and have found it works fantastically:

Roll your Initiative as normal: Roll X Init dice and add the successes to your Init score. This is your actual Initiative.

Then compare the number of hits you had on the roll to the below chart to determine Passes:

* 2 hits , you get your 2nd pass (if you have the appropriate gear/spells for it)

* 3 hits, you get your 3rd and 4th (if you have the appropriate gear/spells for them)

and then to jsut shake things up and make it fun:

* 4+ hits on your test, you gain a second pass (if you are unwired/unspelled.)



A non-wired guy is probably tossing around 6-7 dice on average for Init, so 4+ hits won't come up that often, but when it does, it will give them that nice lucky shot. And he is still only picking up a second pass occasionally.

A wired guy is probably tossing around 8-11 dice, so he is more than likely to always make his threshold for his multiple passes... but sometimes not. A little give in the system. A little "let's see how the dice play out."

Things to consider:
  • There are no additional dice rolls and it's really not hard at all to count your hits and figure out your number of passes, so, it doesn't slow the game down any.
  • It doesn't substitute a system for the game, only adds to it. So, major game balance isn't thrown off.
  • It uses the threshhold concept that is a major core to the game.

Myself and my players enjoyed bringing back a little more randomness to the number of Init passes. I posted this method a while back and several other GM's said they were considering it for their game. Feel free to try it out and experiment. And let me know how it works out for you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Vlad

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