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> What damage does a cyberarm do?
ArkonC
post Apr 27 2008, 12:12 AM
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So I was thinking of replacing an arm on my character and wondered what the damage was of a cyberarm...
Normal flesh and bone attack is (STR/2)S...
Normal flesh and titanium bone laced bones is (STR/2+3)P...
So what about that metal fist? Shouldn't it hurt more that bone lacing wrapped in flesh?
According to me not finding any rules on it, I think the book says it does (STR/2)S, which is quite silly if it's true...
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Screamin Demon
post Apr 27 2008, 01:19 AM
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I would say a group of full grown men having screaming arguments over a fantastic dice game is sillier.
Though I can't track down a quote, I was under the impression that a cyber-fist does Str/2 Physical damage.
I wouldn't give it any bonus higher then that as it would be stepping on the toes of cyber-razors and other such goodies.

Besides, Cyber arms are not solid block of metal, they have many other components, I can imagine the knuckle of a cyberfist being designed to emphasize quality of motor control (Which we take for granted with our Jesus-designed meat fists) and resilience over punching damage. Stop being lazy and go buy some cyberspurs.
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Shrike30
post Apr 27 2008, 05:59 AM
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I'd be inclined to use the (Str/2)+1P damage code of the Hardliner Gloves for a cyberlimb strike, if you felt it necessary. As Screamin Demon said, cyberarms are primarily built to be prosthetics, not weapons.

Sadly, there's no rules for titanium cyberarms (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Lionhearted
post Apr 27 2008, 06:26 AM
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QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 27 2008, 07:59 AM) *
I'd be inclined to use the (Str/2)+1P damage code of the Hardliner Gloves for a cyberlimb strike, if you felt it necessary. As Screamin Demon said, cyberarms are primarily built to be prosthetics, not weapons.

Sadly, there's no rules for titanium cyberarms (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Errr, titanium is used for prosthetics.. as it is about the only metal the body doesnt instantly rejects, however titanium itself aint very hard, it's when you use it as an alloy it becomes deadly shit, however.. a Wolfram reinforced hand, ouch that would hurt
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hyzmarca
post Apr 27 2008, 06:35 AM
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QUOTE (ArkonC @ Apr 26 2008, 07:12 PM) *
So what about that metal fist? Shouldn't it hurt more that bone lacing wrapped in flesh?


Steel isn't strong, boy. Flesh is stronger.



The damage code difference needs no other justification.
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krakjen
post Apr 27 2008, 07:02 AM
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Funny. I was under the impression that metal is better-than-flesh.
Maybe that come from the fact it's said in every SR book ever talking about cyberware...
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Lionhearted
post Apr 27 2008, 07:12 AM
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All steel is metal, however all metal aint steel, personally i prefer the kind of metal that melt faces
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ElFenrir
post Apr 27 2008, 08:46 AM
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Well, i think they left it, so they'd be able to sell ya other stuff! Don't forget there are attachments in Augmentation like the Louisville Slugger(adds Clubs damage), Evo Kali(adds Blades damage), and i do believe one adds punching damage; the Nightengale Feet of Fury add to kick damage; and most of these add +2 if im not mistaken. Raptor Legs add kick damage again as well.

Then there is Hardliner gear(extra +1).

And we won't get into Martial Arts and it's DV stacking. If anything, your cyberspurs or blades? They end up less damaging in the end compared to a open-handed fighter if both of em specialize all the way up.

THAT being said, i do recall SR3 having a rule that if you had a pair of cyberlimbs you got +1 to power as well-i forget if it went to +2, i don't have my M&M on direct hand. Houseruling this back in would be reasonable, as to get the bonus you needed 2 limbs minimum.

But really, when a guy Ars Cybernetica master with Evo Kali arms(+3 bonus total blades DV), 7 Strength(easily gotten in limbs), and Spurs(Str/2+3P) is doing 10P, and the guy next to him with Nightengale Feet of Fury, Raptor Legs and +3 DV from martial arts(and can go higher) with Strength 7 is doing 11P....yeah. There's a reason they didn't juice the damage.
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Stahlseele
post Apr 27 2008, 09:49 AM
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in 3rd you got +1Power per FULL Cyerlimb to your unarmed damage code . . somebody with 2 arms and 2 legs got a hefty +4, so you were even with titan bones back then . .
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Fortune
post Apr 27 2008, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Apr 27 2008, 06:46 PM) *
Don't forget there are attachments in Augmentation like the Louisville Slugger(adds Clubs damage), Evo Kali(adds Blades damage), and i do believe one adds punching damage; the Nightengale Feet of Fury add to kick damage; and most of these add +2 if im not mistaken. Raptor Legs add kick damage again as well.


No. All of those enhancements add to the Dice Pool, not to DV.
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Larme
post Apr 27 2008, 03:10 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Apr 27 2008, 02:35 AM) *
Steel isn't strong, boy. Flesh is stronger.



The damage code difference needs no other justification.


Someone already responded literally to this. To those who did not realize it's a quote, it's from Conan the Barbarian. When someone says something wacky like this, Google is your friend.

Here's my thinking: hardness is certainly a factor, but really what determines how hard an object strikes something is its weight and velocity. And I think that a normal cyberarm is going to be weighted similarly to a regular arm, and swing just about as fast. It's not going to be solid metal, it will have lightweight polymers and alloys and such. Otherwise it would be so heavy that someone with one cyberarm would always walk lopsided and fall over easily (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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ElFenrir
post Apr 27 2008, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 27 2008, 11:01 AM) *
No. All of those enhancements add to the Dice Pool, not to DV.



I could have sworn the Raptor Legs add +2 to the kick attacks(they used to, anyway). And in the SR4 Excel Chargen; it showed 'Nightengale Feet of Fury'' as +2 power to Kick Attacks. (I do have one of the earlier versions of the excel chargen, though.)
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weblife
post Apr 27 2008, 03:57 PM
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Why not simply have the Titanium Lacing work even on the cybered limb?

The character is evenly juiced up, so no awkward weight distribution, and it only works for his Unarmed attacks anyway.

He pays 1,5 Essence for the Titanium, so its not like he saves a bunch compared to the Spur.
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Tarantula
post Apr 27 2008, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Apr 27 2008, 08:41 AM) *
I could have sworn the Raptor Legs add +2 to the kick attacks(they used to, anyway). And in the SR4 Excel Chargen; it showed 'Nightengale Feet of Fury'' as +2 power to Kick Attacks. (I do have one of the earlier versions of the excel chargen, though.)


Raptor legs are +2 to strength, so effectively +1 to damage. However, you can't have nightengale feet of fury (which are +2 dice pool to kick attacks) and raptor legs, because raptor legs are modular, and optimized cyberlimbs can't be modular.
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ElFenrir
post Apr 27 2008, 05:07 PM
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Ok, i gotcha. Yeah, i admit the whole modular/optimized limb sorta confused me for a bit. At first i read it that the modular were a version of optimal...but they are different. So the Feet of Fury are considered 'Optimized'', the Raptor Legs ''Modular.'' Well, it's cool.

Either way, with the Martial Arts DV increases and the like, they can easily surpass the bladed weapons-so tacking on lots of extra damage to the limbs might not be needed.


As for the bone lacing, i recall in the old rules again, you had that 'Discount'. Stuff cost less essence and less nuyen the more limbs you had...it made sense since you were, well, getting less of it, since you couldn't add the stuff to cyberlimbs. But they seemed to do away with that. I suppose it would be easy enough to add back in. I mean, why would it cost me 1.5 of my essence to lace my one remaining arm? (a little off topic, but i have been thinking about this.) (if'm im paying full essence, then i kinda want my whole body treated, but i don't think they came up with a way to add bone lacing to cyberlimbs...they are kinda already there, being made of metal, ceramics, and the like, so it would be kind of redundant.)
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weblife
post Apr 27 2008, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Apr 27 2008, 01:07 PM) *
they are kinda already there, being made of metal, ceramics, and the like, so it would be kind of redundant.)


I would disagree. A normal cyberlimb is made to match your body.

If you have Titanium bone-lacing, you "normal" body is much more durable and heavier than the typical cyberlimb. Thus, a limb for you would be a customized bugger that lets you keep the boni from Titanium bone-lacing.

They'd simply use more and heavier metals in the cyber arm, as compared to a regular one.

This could cost more, but you sorta already paid for it.

Again, from a balance perspective I do not see this quirk being a big problem, and common sense wise it can be "handled". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Larme
post Apr 27 2008, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE (weblife @ Apr 27 2008, 02:01 PM) *
I would disagree. A normal cyberlimb is made to match your body.


Not according to Augmentation they're not. They come with standard attributes for your metatype, so actually they're made to match the average human of your metatype. If they were made to match you, at least in terms of weight and bulk, then you'd assume that they'd start with the same Body that you had when you bought the limb. But they don't.

Now, customized limbs with body and strength enhancement will almost surely be bigger and heavier. But those aren't normal, those are customized.

As I see it, the default use for cyberlimbs is to serve as cheap prosthetics. They are not designed to be weapons. As such, they are actually designed to mimic how a real limb would work as much as possible, even obvious limbs. You don't want your cyberleg to be so big and heavy by default that it makes holes in your floor. And you don't want your cyberarm to be so heavy that it collapses your baby's lungs when you're cradling it. Normal cyberlimbs exist, primarily, to replace normal meat limbs. Obviously you can cutomize them and trick them out to hell and back, making them very effective weapons, but that's not what the off the shelf models are for.
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Screamin Demon
post Apr 27 2008, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE (weblife @ Apr 27 2008, 07:01 PM) *
Thus, a limb for you would be a customized bugger that lets you keep the boni from Titanium bone-lacing.


...did you really use the word 'boni'?

Anyhow, you do keep the bonus from having metal bones. Unarmed combat is something that uses all of your limbs roughly equally (granted this does depend on what fighting style you are using) but a bone-laced boxer with 1 cyberarm would receive an average of both arms to his unarmed combat damage.

And for the record Conan fucking rocks, I totally got the quote as soon as I saw it. Thats movie Conan, though. Book Conan would have twisted Thulsa's scrotum off long before he got that far into his speech.
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weblife
post Apr 27 2008, 07:58 PM
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Hehe, boni is the correct form for multiple bonuses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And it specifically says that you use the stats for the limb which leads the attack. You only average it out for other stuff.

And to Larme, if you look at my post again, you will notice I do call the titanium weight cyber limb customized to what is "normal" for your character. So, yea, you say what I said, I do not disagree.

But the OP is looking for a customized cyber limb that specifically allows him to keep the titanium lacing bonuses. And I see no problem there, as long as we are talking customized limbs.
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ArkonC
post Apr 27 2008, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE (weblife @ Apr 27 2008, 09:58 PM) *
Hehe, boni is the correct form for multiple bonuses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And it specifically says that you use the stats for the limb which leads the attack. You only average it out for other stuff.

And to Larme, if you look at my post again, you will notice I do call the titanium weight cyber limb customized to what is "normal" for your character. So, yea, you say what I said, I do not disagree.

But the OP is looking for a customized cyber limb that specifically allows him to keep the titanium lacing bonuses. And I see no problem there, as long as we are talking customized limbs.

No, I'm not, I'm planning to replace an arm with a cyberarm, and I couldn't find the standard damage of a cyberarm, meaning it would do (STR/2)S, which would be silly...
All the other things being discussed are interesting, but my question was answered when no one knew what the damage was... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Screamin Demon
post Apr 27 2008, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (weblife @ Apr 27 2008, 08:58 PM) *
Hehe, boni is the correct form for multiple bonuses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



And all this time I thought the plural form of bonus was bonuses... This problem always seems to pop up in shadowrun crowds, probably because they get the idea from the plural form of focus.

http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Boni

Its lame to argue, I know, but I have two soft spots, one is my hatred for the word 'Boni'.
The other (unassociated) one is my complete lack of tolerance for the crappy theology of neopagans.
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Critias
post Apr 28 2008, 05:07 AM
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QUOTE (ArkonC @ Apr 27 2008, 04:13 PM) *
No, I'm not, I'm planning to replace an arm with a cyberarm, and I couldn't find the standard damage of a cyberarm, meaning it would do (STR/2)S, which would be silly...
All the other things being discussed are interesting, but my question was answered when no one knew what the damage was... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, everyone knows what the damage is. It's that "silly" (Str/2)S, the same as a normal (non-cyberlimb) melee attack. Some folks are just bitching about it, hence the conversation. We know the answer, but now there's a mild debate going on justifying other possible answers for potential house rules.
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weblife
post Apr 28 2008, 06:46 AM
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QUOTE (Screamin Demon @ Apr 27 2008, 05:04 PM) *
And all this time I thought the plural form of bonus was bonuses... This problem always seems to pop up in shadowrun crowds, probably because they get the idea from the plural form of focus.

http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Boni

Its lame to argue, I know, but I have two soft spots, one is my hatred for the word 'Boni'.
The other (unassociated) one is my complete lack of tolerance for the crappy theology of neopagans.


Now that we are being silly, take a look at this informative page about English and borrowed Latin words. Plenty more examples you would not like to see common use.

Like taking the bi or shooting rhinoceron.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mplurals.html

It doesn't change the fact that boni is a correct way to pluralise bonus in Latin.

But having googled a bit, I can see that this discussion flares up all over the net in various forums. It appears to be very important stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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ArkonC
post Apr 28 2008, 06:51 AM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 28 2008, 06:07 AM) *
No, everyone knows what the damage is. It's that "silly" (Str/2)S, the same as a normal (non-cyberlimb) melee attack. Some folks are just bitching about it, hence the conversation. We know the answer, but now there's a mild debate going on justifying other possible answers for potential house rules.

All right then, where's the page reference to the damage of cyberlimbs?
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Screamin Demon
post Apr 28 2008, 06:58 AM
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The problem is that English is a bastard language and borrows so many rules from so many different places with single words sometimes having multiple etymologies (Like Witch or Fuck) that any argument turns quickly futile. I like to stick with popular opinion and understanding. I live in Hawaii, and if you use anything to indicate plural other then some extra 's'es people look at you strangely or call you a Haole.
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