What damage does a cyberarm do? Options

[Critias]

All right then, where's the page reference to the damage of cyberlimbs?

SR4 core book, page 149. "Unarmed combat."

The advantages a cyberlimb brings to combat are already factored in with their modifiable stats (increased STR = increased damage), the options for further customization in Augmentation (+1 die per limb is nothing to sneeze at), and the capacity for mounting additional weapons (be they shock knuckles or cyberspurs). In and of themselves, cyberlimbs don't innately change your melee damage, though. Sorry.

There's no specific reference to cyberlimbs on the melee damage/weapon chart, because there's nothing anywhere that should lead you to believe there needs to be one. Similarly, a knee does the same damage as a punch, a forearm strike does the same as a headbutt, a chop does the same as a kick, and an elbow does the same as a palm strike. They all fall under "unarmed," just like a cyberlimb.

Now, if you'd like to house rule it so they match up with some bone lacing or a hardliner glove, you knock yourself out. I can certainly see the logic behind it, and (for once) wouldn't much mind someone instituting that as a house rule (or even seeing it in a shaded "optional rule" box in an official game book). But, right now, as written, they do the default unarmed damage appropriate for the attributes of the limb (if leading with that limb, as per page 335).

[Larme]

And to Larme, if you look at my post again, you will notice I do call the titanium weight cyber limb customized to what is "normal" for your character. So, yea, you say what I said, I do not disagree.

But the OP is looking for a customized cyber limb that specifically allows him to keep the titanium lacing bonuses. And I see no problem there, as long as we are talking customized limbs.

I thought you were saying that the limb was automatically customized. I always try to correct statements that sound misleading when I read them, for the sake of teh newbs, esepcailly since some of them may not have Augmentation and grasp the entirety of what we're talking about.

In terms of whether you should hose rule cyberlimbs and let them buy upgrades to melee damage, I'm not so sure. Cyberlimbs are already pretty powerful. The scariest offensive character you can bring out of chargen is one with agility 10-ish cyberlimbs, which is the most direct route to those nutsy dice pools in the 20s. Combine that with strength upgrades, and you have one deadly customer. Do we really need to add the physical damage of titanium lacing, which is actually so powerful it can't be bought in chargen under normal rules? Meh...

[ElFenrir]

Well, Bone Density can give the same damage code as Titanium, and that's not only available at chargen, it's legal, more Essence friendly and doesn't show up on MADs. I recall that discussion in another thread. Titanium's not all that bad; it grants a touch of armor(always nice) and is cheaper. But i wouldn't call it 'so powerful', i'd put it about equal with the bone density, in the end, once you factor in the armor and cost. (If you have money to spend? i'd say BD takes it over all the way, unless you really, really, want the 1/1 armor.)

But that being said; i can absolutely vouch that Cyberlimb characters can be insane. My one cybered elf i only bring out in one or two shots because i feel flat-out guilty playing him for long periods of time, and he's got the legs and torso of maxed out doom, basically. So really, cyberlimbs, after Augmentation, are really excellent in and of themselves.

[ArkonC]

SR4 core book, page 149. "Unarmed combat."

The advantages a cyberlimb brings to combat are already factored in with their modifiable stats (increased STR = increased damage), the options for further customization in Augmentation (+1 die per limb is nothing to sneeze at), and the capacity for mounting additional weapons (be they shock knuckles or cyberspurs). In and of themselves, cyberlimbs don't innately change your melee damage, though. Sorry.

There's no specific reference to cyberlimbs on the melee damage/weapon chart, because there's nothing anywhere that should lead you to believe there needs to be one. Similarly, a knee does the same damage as a punch, a forearm strike does the same as a headbutt, a chop does the same as a kick, and an elbow does the same as a palm strike. They all fall under "unarmed," just like a cyberlimb.

Now, if you'd like to house rule it so they match up with some bone lacing or a hardliner glove, you knock yourself out. I can certainly see the logic behind it, and (for once) wouldn't much mind someone instituting that as a house rule (or even seeing it in a shaded "optional rule" box in an official game book). But, right now, as written, they do the default unarmed damage appropriate for the attributes of the limb (if leading with that limb, as per page 335).

Actually, there is...

While biotech is essentially augmented flesh and bone, cyber uses well-tested plastic derivatives, polymers and other myomers, ceramics and non-corrosive (as well as nonmagnetic and even non-conductive) alloys, insulated microfiberoptic lines, micro-electronics, microcomputers, micro-optical processors, and microgyroscopes and servos—you can’t get hardier than that.

Now, if a wooden stick does Physical damage, shouldn't something made of high-tech plastics, polymers and alloys also do physical damage?
The only reason to assume cyberlimbs do Stun is because regular limbs do Stun and the book says nothing about cyberlimb damage...
IT doesn't say cyberlimbs do (STR/2)S it says nothing... Absolutely nothing... At all...
Anyway, for easy of play we've just decided cyberlimbs do P with whatever mods you had before...
So Mr. No-ware get a cyberarm and now does (STR/2)P...
And Mr. Titanium-Laced gets a cyberarm and still does the (STR/2+3)P he did before...
Not very realistic, but seems balanced and fair...

[Larme]

Well, Bone Density can give the same damage code as Titanium, and that's not only available at chargen, it's legal, more Essence friendly and doesn't show up on MADs. I recall that discussion in another thread. Titanium's not all that bad; it grants a touch of armor(always nice) and is cheaper. But i wouldn't call it 'so powerful', i'd put it about equal with the bone density, in the end, once you factor in the armor and cost. (If you have money to spend? i'd say BD takes it over all the way, unless you really, really, want the 1/1 armor.)

Ok, so scratch the "so powerful," but it's still outside of chargen availability. And the important part of the argument is still standing: cyberlimbs kick ass, we don't need to house rule more upgrades for them to make them nuts. There should be a hard choice between to cyberlimb and not to cyberlimb. Cyberlims can have amazing attributes pretty cheaply and easily, as well as all kinds of gadgets. But regular cyber enhances more than just one limb and is often cheaper and more essence friendly. It's difficult to choose between them. Make cyberlimbs better, and now you've tipped the balance.

[Critias]

Actually, there is...

No, it doesn't. That's not a rule. That's not even close to a rule. That's pure fluff, and as cool as fluff is, it's not rules. It's, at best, house rules (which I'm not arguing).

Now, if a wooden stick does Physical damage, shouldn't something made of high-tech plastics, polymers and alloys also do physical damage?
The only reason to assume cyberlimbs do Stun is because regular limbs do Stun and the book says nothing about cyberlimb damage...
IT doesn't say cyberlimbs do (STR/2)S it says nothing... Absolutely nothing... At all...
Anyway, for easy of play we've just decided cyberlimbs do P with whatever mods you had before...
So Mr. No-ware get a cyberarm and now does (STR/2)P...
And Mr. Titanium-Laced gets a cyberarm and still does the (STR/2+3)P he did before...
Not very realistic, but seems balanced and fair...

Yes, maybe it should. However, nowhere in the rules does it say that it does.

Fact: There is no special damage code listed for cyberlimbs.

Fact: That means they use the default damage rating for an unarmed character, as that character is not using a weapon, and is, as such, by definition, unarmed.

Fact: It's a common house rule to change that, because many people feel cyberlimbs should do extra/better/different damage.

Fact: The probability of a house rule, or even the sense that a house rule makes, does not mean that the official rule has changed in any way. Cyberlimbs do the default "unarmed" damage. I'm sorry if you don't like that answer, but it is still the answer to your question.

[ArkonC]

No, it doesn't. That's not a rule. That's not even close to a rule. That's pure fluff, and as cool as fluff is, it's not rules. It's, at best, house rules (which I'm not arguing).

Very true, complete fluff, no crunch...

Yes, maybe it should. However, nowhere in the rules does it say that it does.

Fact: There is no special damage code listed for cyberlimbs.

Fact: That means they use the default damage rating for an unarmed character, as that character is not using a weapon, and is, as such, by definition, unarmed.

Fact: It's a common house rule to change that, because many people feel cyberlimbs should do extra/better/different damage.

Fact: The probability of a house rule, or even the sense that a house rule makes, does not mean that the official rule has changed in any way. Cyberlimbs do the default "unarmed" damage. I'm sorry if you don't like that answer, but it is still the answer to your question.

I think you misunderstand me, I wasn't saying I was stating RAW, I was stating that apart from your second fact, namely that it says nothing on the subject, they would do default unarmed damage...
That's why we've decided cyberarms don't add to damage, if you do (STR/2+3)P before getting the arm, you do (STR/2+3)P after getting the arm, which is your default unarmed damage...
The only alteration is Stun to Physical, which is, as you say, as house a rule as a rule can get...
Which is exactly what you are saying...
So what exactly am I trying to convince you of? That you're right? Well, I would have to be since we're both saying the same thing...

A discussion where we're both right...
We need more of those... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Screamin Demon]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) Not to stick my nose in here fellas, but in the case of dual rightness I believe protocol is to fall back upon either who is more right, or who was more right first.

[Larme]

No, the protocol is to keep arguing as if there was a disagreement using a series of straw man, ad hominem, and red herring fallacies. Probably invoking Hitler around page 11 or so, and definitely calling the other person gay and impling that they have a small dick and have sex with their mother despite being gay. Hooray internet! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Critias]

Pfft, you think it'll take until page 11 for Hitler to come up? What's your posts-per-page set to, like, three?

[hyzmarca]

Hitler's cyberarms didn't do physical damage in unarmed combat, but they had miniguns built in, which more than makes up for it.