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> Numbers of Elves
Kithran
post Apr 27 2008, 07:58 AM
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OK I've been digging through my old Shadowrun and Earthdawn books and something suddenly struck me - how many elves are there?

The reason I ask is according to the BBB elves (and dwarves) first appeared in 2011 and they were born rather than adults transforming in the way Orcs and Trolls appeared. Yet a mere 18 years later (ie the eldest elf was only 18) the Sinsearach were formed and it was only 23 years later that Tir na nog was formed. Whilst the Immortal Elves had obviously appeared human during the fifth age I think there must have either been far more immortal elves than we know about (by a factor of a 1000 or so) or some elves must have transformed.

Anyone else have any comments?

Cheers

Kithran
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Method
post Apr 27 2008, 07:59 AM
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Don't forget spike babies. Some elves were born before UGE in 2011.
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Stahlseele
post Apr 27 2008, 08:15 AM
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also don't forget that immoral elves only don't die of old age but will surely do so with some metal in a place in their body where it does not belong
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HentaiZonga
post Apr 27 2008, 08:18 AM
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A tangential question: Where are 2070-era metahuman demographics published?
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Cantankerous
post Apr 27 2008, 08:22 AM
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If even one in 300 births were elves during those years there could be several millions of Elves in just the Western world alone. And from everything Shadowrun tells us, it was allot more prevalent than just that. Even with attrition figured in, there should be allot of elves in their sixties downwards and adding in "spike babies" you might be able to actually double even that amount.

For my own game I figure that Elves occur MUCH more often than that even in human/human pairings still today, so that a world wide figure of almost 1% of the population being elven leaves us with more than 60 million elves world wide. I add about half that many dwarves and more than 5 times that many orcs and almost as many trolls as elves to the mix.

And mind you, my demographics are STILL much lower than the game represents. I do this for a number of reasons, including the much higher than human attrition rate among eta humans...because they are still a small minority and are so often hated and or feared. Human beings subconsciously don't want a competitor race that might supplant them. So it is only when they begin to understand that metahumanity does NOT represent such a "competitor race" in their conscious thought processes that any type of parity in attrition values can begin to happen. When it does the values will probably get to be even a bit higher than in game before more or less stabilizing. Except maybe for the Orcs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I have a sort of odd half thought back in the recesses of my mind which has most of humanity getting off of Earth at some point (maybe around 2300) and baseline humans one day being the second largest population on their homeworld after all.


Isshia
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SIN
post Apr 27 2008, 09:04 AM
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Hello all,

Sorry to ask a silly question, but what's a "spike baby"?

Thanks,

SIN
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HentaiZonga
post Apr 27 2008, 09:07 AM
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QUOTE (SIN @ Apr 27 2008, 10:04 AM) *
Hello all,

Sorry to ask a silly question, but what's a "spike baby"?

Thanks,

SIN


An Elf or Dwarf born before 2011, so-called because it could only happen in a "Mana spike" - basically, a few Domains with extremely high background count (places like Stonehenge, or Uluru, or the Sphinx) would occasionally spike up high enough during the Fifth World to actually produce a measurable ambient mana field for a few months; if an embryo with metahuman genes happened to spend most of its gestational period within that domain, they came out as an Elf or Dwarf. Rare, but it happened.
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SIN
post Apr 27 2008, 09:20 AM
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So, where were all these spike babies before 2011? Did no one notice them?

SIN
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Kithran
post Apr 27 2008, 09:23 AM
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My point isn't so much about how many elves are around now but how many were around when the various elven nations were formed. Spike babies have to be very rare - otherwise UGE would have been considered to have occured earlier and therefore shouldn't really matter. For there to be enough elves to allow the formation of the two tirs and still leave plenty in other areas the numbers just seem wrong unless a percentage of normal humans suddenly found themselves changing into elves - possibly descendents of the immortal elves as a small number of them could leave a lot of descendants in 7000 years or there are a hell of a lot more immortal elves than we know about.

Kithran

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Stahlseele
post Apr 27 2008, 09:45 AM
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there were people hunting dragons during the down cycle, and the elves had no magic during the down cycle either, accidents happen my friend . .
accidents, wars, general violent crimes . . some thousand years is a long time and long enough to kill some thousand immoral elves with other causes than dieing of old age . . if every year just about 10 immoral elves get killed due to some other circumstances it's a wonder that any made it over to the 6th world . . .
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Rad
post Apr 27 2008, 09:51 AM
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QUOTE (SIN @ Apr 27 2008, 01:20 AM) *
So, where were all these spike babies before 2011? Did no one notice them?

SIN



Sure they did, maybe you've seen them on the cover of the National Enquirer? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 11:22 AM
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QUOTE (SIN @ Apr 27 2008, 04:20 AM) *
So, where were all these spike babies before 2011? Did no one notice them?

SIN

Because all an "Elf" is, is a tall, scrawny person with pointy ears.

Frag, my RL Grandfather fits that description.

Come to think of it, my family does have a tendency towards a long life expectancy, save for accidents...
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MYST1C
post Apr 27 2008, 11:50 AM
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QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ Apr 27 2008, 10:18 AM) *
A tangential question: Where are 2070-era metahuman demographics published?

Not 2070 but 2063 - demographics from Shadows of Europe compiled:
CODE
Human  67.29%
Dwarf   7.24%
Elf    10.35%
Ork     9.18%
Troll   4.71%
Other   1.29%

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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 11:56 AM
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Yeah, but is that just the SINners?
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weblife
post Apr 27 2008, 12:15 PM
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So basically the two Tirs were founded by a bunch of riled-up teenagers, working coordinated across several continents to recruit and muster the funds and firepower needed to execute their plan?

I think you have to assume a few immortal elves were involved. But if they are good enough, then it can probably be done, although the "feel" I had of the Tir nations did not include being founded by people in their early twenties. - But the more power to them if thats how it was!

On that note, during the formation, almost every elf on the planet would have to have heard of or received recruiting calls for them to gather enough elves to get away with this.

Regarding the immortal elves and attrition, assuming they breed at all, they would do so at an exponential rate that far surpasses that of attrition. However, it might be that the children of mixed blood would simply be humans, not immortal elves. Or even, if elves, then not immortal.

I know the cause I going to bring up now stems from a grim period, but at the end of the movie Schindlers List, there is a summary of the people that were saved, and then a number in the hundreds of thousands that are their descendants. The point I'm trying to make is that people breed, the rest is not for here.

Another good example is America, if you do the math the population growth in the US has been significantly higher than in Europe since the initial colonization. People spread like wildfire if there is room enough. And its darn hard to kill off a family strain unless you specifically target them. As part of natural attrition, its highly improbable that one strain is completely wiped out.

Now we count in thousands of years, if even a handful of immortal elves had any kind of libido, their children are everywhere. (UGE babies being the first of their families to return to elf appearance).
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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 12:24 PM
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And you know that Harlequin has to have so many bastard children... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Kithran
post Apr 27 2008, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE (weblife @ Apr 27 2008, 01:15 PM) *
So basically the two Tirs were founded by a bunch of riled-up teenagers, working coordinated across several continents to recruit and muster the funds and firepower needed to execute their plan?

I think you have to assume a few immortal elves were involved. But if they are good enough, then it can probably be done, although the "feel" I had of the Tir nations did not include being founded by people in their early twenties. - But the more power to them if thats how it was!

On that note, during the formation, almost every elf on the planet would have to have heard of or received recruiting calls for them to gather enough elves to get away with this.


And that is my basic question/problem. If you assume that any elf aged less than 15 wouldn't have been any use in the creation of the tow Tirs this means you only have 7 years worth of UGE births - somehow 10% of 7 years births managed to set up their own countries, in the case of the Sinsearach you'd only have 3 years of UGE births. Even with help from the immortal elves I have trouble with the concept. If the conversion has been more like goblinisation whereby people who were already experienced became elves then it is more believeable but still a stretch.

Kithran
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last_of_the_grea...
post Apr 27 2008, 01:59 PM
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The elves, immortal or otherwise, were working on forming the Tirs long before they became reality. When human paranoia and prejudice threatened metahumans and Oregon said, "Hey, come here, dudes. We're just like you," well, migration happenned.That 10% elves also had other metahumans as well, like dwarfs.Now, let's say 25% of elves migrated. Random number. 10% of the7 years of births. Let's say there was a population of 50 million people in North America. Each had 1 child. That would be 5 million metas. Half of which were elves? 2.5 million. Multiply that by 7. 17,500,000 elves. So, with 25% showing up that's over 5 million elves showing up at Oregon and are told the plan. Immortal elves use their magic and experience to guide this horde. Word gets out that elves are making their own land...hmmm...maybe a second migration happens, doubling that number...

All just a mental exercise here with pretty much nothing to back it up, but it was fun to think about.
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Kithran
post Apr 27 2008, 02:53 PM
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QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ Apr 27 2008, 02:59 PM) *
The elves, immortal or otherwise, were working on forming the Tirs long before they became reality. When human paranoia and prejudice threatened metahumans and Oregon said, "Hey, come here, dudes. We're just like you," well, migration happenned.That 10% elves also had other metahumans as well, like dwarfs.Now, let's say 25% of elves migrated. Random number. 10% of the7 years of births. Let's say there was a population of 50 million people in North America. Each had 1 child. That would be 5 million metas. Half of which were elves? 2.5 million. Multiply that by 7. 17,500,000 elves. So, with 25% showing up that's over 5 million elves showing up at Oregon and are told the plan. Immortal elves use their magic and experience to guide this horde. Word gets out that elves are making their own land...hmmm...maybe a second migration happens, doubling that number...

All just a mental exercise here with pretty much nothing to back it up, but it was fun to think about.


Current US Birthrate is approximately 13.7 which gives just over 4 million births a year from a population of 300 million. If 10% were elves that would be 400,000 per year or 2.8 million total elves born in the US over 7 years, a quarter of them would be 700,000.

The birthrate for Ireland is slightly higher at 14.4

Kithran (gotta love the net for looking up facts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Ancient History
post Apr 27 2008, 04:52 PM
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Recall that the Elven birthrate was somewhat higher in the Pacific Northwest and Ireland than in other areas.
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Method
post Apr 27 2008, 05:05 PM
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It would only take a few thousand willing to fight, lead by powerful IE magicians and backed up by a dragon to overthrow a local state government. Fending off the US reprisals would be the real challenge...

And the Sinsearch tribe kind of makes sense. I can see a bunch of angst ridden teens and twenty year olds wandering out into the wilderness to found a utopian hippy love colony.
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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 05:12 PM
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Great... Elven Hippies...
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Kithran
post Apr 27 2008, 05:23 PM
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QUOTE (Method @ Apr 27 2008, 06:05 PM) *
It would only take a few thousand willing to fight, lead by powerful IE magicians and backed up by a dragon to overthrow a local state government. Fending off the US reprisals would be the real challenge...

And the Sinsearch tribe kind of makes sense. I can see a bunch of angst ridden teens and twenty year olds wandering out into the wilderness to found a utopian hippy love colony.


But would adults let a bunch of agnst-ridden teens (remember the eldest would be 18....) wander out into the wilderness to found a utopian hippy love colony.... And if you think 1 or 2 older people (ie immortal elves) would help I think it would be more likely to hinder at least in the public perception stakes.

Kithran
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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 05:24 PM
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Guess you never heard of the '60s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Kithran
post Apr 27 2008, 05:28 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 27 2008, 06:24 PM) *
Guess you never heard of the '60s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


But in the 60s it was the first time it had happened, are you telling me an attempt nowadays by a bunch of angst-ridden teens would be easy....
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