[X] My Assistant

[CanRay]

It wasn't easy back then, either, I bet. Wouldn't know, wasn't there.

But if it can be done once, it can be done again... And, honestly, people forget all too quickly the lessons of the past.

And, who knows, maybe this is part of the Immortal Elves' plan after all...

Or, they couldn't be arsed, and had more important things to do...

[Aaron]

A tangential question: Where are 2070-era metahuman demographics published?

If you turn to page 66 in your hymnal, you'll find that humans are a "slight majority of the Earth's population."

[Hatspur]

We can claim that the elves are all angsty teens, but they were also a generation that grew up dealing with things like: The Great Ghost Dance, Economic and communications crash, social upheaval with SAIM, and the VITAS plague. These were not genetically, philosophically, or physically weak people. Nobody would be at this time in history if you were still alive. In fact, there isn't anyone living in the United States who isn't from an Eastern Block country or served in active military service in the last 10 years who can really relate to anything close to that amount of catastrophe in an 18 year period. The foundation of the country is also no surprise when you couple all the above horrors with the NAN already failing to hold together under their newfound autonomy.

[CanRay]

Very good point.

Frankly, the Generation most "Hard as the Streets" 'Runners are, are wimps compared to their parents.

And I can see the Grandparents going, "Damnit, boy... Back in my day, we had to steal our food from heavily armed convoys, going up hill, both ways, through a MOB! And we were LUCKY if we even had PANTS, forget shoes!"

Which, considering what happened in New York... Might not that be far from the truth...

[MYST1C]

The reason I ask is according to the BBB elves (and dwarves) first appeared in 2011 and they were born rather than adults transforming in the way Orcs and Trolls appeared.

In general, possible metahuman age is something that seems to be forgotten sometimes by SR authors (both professional and fanstuff).
The first elves and dwarves (not counting spikebabies) were born in 2011, meaning the oldest regular elves and dwarves are just in their late 50s in 2070.
The first orks and trolls (not counting the first goblinization wave of formerly normal humans) were born in 2021, meaning the oldest born orks and trolls are just in their late 40s in 2070 - if they got that old, that is.

Yet there are descriptions of "really old-looking" dwarves and elves in stories set just in the 2060s or even 2050s! Geriatric-looking orks or trolls I can accept (I'm of the "orks and trolls age faster than humans"-school) but not elves and dwarves.

[Kithran]

In general, possible metahuman age is something that seems to be forgotten sometimes by SR authors (both professional and fanstuff).
The first elves and dwarves (not counting spikebabies) were born in 2011, meaning the oldest regular elves and dwarves are just in their late 50s in 2070.
The first orks and trolls (not counting the first goblinization wave of formerly normal humans) were born in 2021, meaning the oldest born orks and trolls are just in their late 40s in 2070 - if they got that old, that is.

Yet there are descriptions of "really old-looking" dwarves and elves in stories set just in the 2060s or even 2050s! Geriatric-looking orks or trolls I can accept (I'm of the "orks and trolls age faster than humans"-school) but not elves and dwarves.

Its not an issue with Orcs and Trolls - goblinisation is explictily described as something that happened to 10% of the worlds adults therefore they can quite easily be elderly (or even die of old age) in the 2050s. The one off 'old looking' elf or dwarf could be explained as disguise, disease or the like but the whole forming of nations is far more of a stretch.

Kithran

[Nath]

Not 2070 but 2063 - demographics from Shadows of Europe compiled:

CODE

Human  67.29%
Dwarf   7.24%
Elf    10.35%
Ork     9.18%
Troll   4.71%
Other   1.29%

I found 67.29% of humans, by suming the human percentile of every country, and dividing this sum by the number of countries. Which is not the right thing. Factoring population in, Western Europe figures are human 69.49%, dwarf 6.34%, elve 8.71%, ork 10.21%, troll 4.21% troll and "other" 1.05%.

Figures for North America circa 2062 -according to Shadows of North America- are human 65.94%, dwarf 6.81%, elve 9.84%, ork 11.85%, troll 4.91% and "other" 0.65%. Shadows of Asia features numbers only for India, Japan, Rusia and Korea, with high figures for human, 76.84% (Japan's not that much to blame : Indians account for 70% of it).

Overall, known data (North America, Western Europe, those four Asian countries, plus Aztlan and the Trans-Polar Aleut) give human 73.14%, dwarf 5.73%, elve 6.82%, ork 10.57%, troll 2.60% and other 1.14% on a total of 2,290,514,134.
.

[Stahlseele]

the one of the old looking dwarf can simply be explained away by dwarfs simply looking old no matter how old they really are . . kinda like elves looking young no matter how old they are . . i still don't believe in the elves living for more than 200 years . .

[Spike]

That whole age thing is a great part of why I worked for so very long with the assumption that Elves and Dwarves were part of the 'goblinization' in addition to the UGE...

BUt I was mocked!! MOCKED!!!


Who's laughing now!!!

Bwahahahahahahaha....




Er... I mean... nevermind.

[Method]

The first orks and trolls (not counting the first goblinization wave of formerly normal humans) were born in 2021, meaning the oldest born orks and trolls are just in their late 40s in 2070 - if they got that old, that is.

Uh... except that goblinization occurs at or around puberty which means they are 12-13 to begin with (i.e. born around the same time as UGE in 2011). Thus in 2070 the oldest orcs and trolls are as old as the oldest UGE elves and dwarfs- late 50s (which according to fluff is pretty old for an orc or troll). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

Edit: also, I've always thought the shorter life span of trolls and orcs had a certain "social injustice" quality to it. Poverty, manual labor, crappy health care, shitty diet, violence, etc... all major contributers to shorter life span in certain minority populations even today in RL.

[Fortune]

Mock! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

Orcs with their fast lifecycles and capability to give birth to litters, and the fact that they are the mster race in shadowrun terms should mean that they would be majority of the population by themselves.

[last_of_the_grea...]

i still don't believe in the elves living for more than 200 years . .

Well, let's see if my memory serves me here. I do believe there was/is a definite link between Earthdawn and Shadowrun, considering some of the exact same characters from Earthdawn appeared in Shadowrun. So, using this logic, I also think I remember the Eartdawn game book stating unequivocably that elves lived for 400 years. If my memory is correct (though at my age it can get kinda buggy) then that means Shadowrun elves have a 400 year life expectancy, unless they happen to be of the immortal variety.

[Critias]

i still don't believe in the elves living for more than 200 years . .

Really? Well, I don't believe in trolls getting big body and strength bonuses.

Who's laughing now?

[Fuchs]

Just change it for your game. Nothing like making all the elven tradition and cuture as big lies spread by the half-breed offspring of demons masking as "immortal elves".

[Stahlseele]

the only reason why no elf has died of old age is, that they simply don't know when to keep out of other people's business . .
dieing of lead poisoning should be considered of natural cause . .

[FrankTrollman]

Juggling the numbers from various books, it appears that Roughly 1/7 of the world are Elves, roughly 1/7 of the world are Orks, and roughly 1/7 of the world are all other whacky metatypes: trolls, dwarfs, ghouls, whatever.

-Frank

[CanRay]

dieing of lead poisoning should be considered of natural cause . .

Oh, I'm sure there's more than one medical report that reads: "Shot fifty-seven times in the back, stabbed eighteen times in the neck area, nearly severing the head, poisoned extensively by unknown agent... Cause of death, heart failure due to undiagnosed heart murmur exasperated by poor air quality."

Or that CSI Episode where a variety of people try to kill a Boxer, and, in the end, it was the Lawn Chair.

[Blue eyes]

I expect that if/when we get an official update of the demographics, humans will still be the majority but that the orc race is growing fast and clearly the 2nd largest, followed by elves and dwarves. I assume trolls still will be the smallest overall.

Hopefully we will see an offical update regarding the race demographics in a future book.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

Really? Well, I don't believe in trolls getting big body and strength bonuses.

Who's laughing now?

Funny. But the difference is that Trolls get big body and strength bonuses RIGHT NOW. It's a lot easier to make your game not include long-lived elves without whipping out a house-rule-hammer. Stahlseele's games without 200 year elves don't require any houserules, just housefluff. That just makes it a little easier to manage than your games without RAW trolls. Not trying to tell you your games are wrong or anything, just that I can see it being a lot easier to run a game without 200 year elves than without RAW trolls, especially given the speculative nature of a lifespan that hasn't ended yet.

And yes, I realize that you were probably just disputing his interpretation of that very same speculative fluff.

[MYST1C]

Uh... except that goblinization occurs at or around puberty which means they are 12-13 to begin with (i.e. born around the same time as UGE in 2011). Thus in 2070 the oldest orcs and trolls are as old as the oldest UGE elves and dwarfs- late 50s (which according to fluff is pretty old for an orc or troll). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

To quote myself (with emphasis):

The first orks and trolls (not counting the first goblinization wave of formerly normal humans) were born in 2021, meaning the oldest born orks and trolls are just in their late 40s in 2070 - if they got that old, that is.

In 2021 10% of the human world population, people of all ages, suddenly transformed into orks and trolls. There is still discussion whether such transformed humans would still have normal human life expectancy (the novel "Never trust an elf" indicates this - but it's only a novel...).
The first actual ork and troll children, metahumans from impregnation on, were born in 2021 or 2022, I guess.

I was talking explicitly about the latter, not the former.

I don't remember where exactly but there is some piece of fluff in one of the books stating that goblinization has been receding over the last decades - people either get born as metahumans or as humans - and that births of babies of a different race than the parents have been receding as well.

[CanRay]

OK, here's a question... How many groups are running Shadowrun that takes place in 2200s?

So what does it matter how long elves live?

Another point is that we're still, what, four generations? Five? After UGE. No one born at that time thinks long-term like that, there's no social imputus into it. The Elven GANGS have just started to notice that their Leaders aren't getting old and retiring/slowing down and dying like they do in Human/Ork/Troll Gangs. It'll take a few more years for the "Old Men" in the boardrooms to notice the same thing about their business compatriots that are Elves and Dwarves.

That's the totality of the "Elven Longevity" at this point and time.

[Fuchs]

Not to mention that with leonisation and similar tech, up to full body replacement, just about every rich person will stay young. Only the poor grow old, and I assume that an elf living in the barrens won't exactly look young with 40, just maybe a smidgen less worn than his troll chummer - maybe even more, given that the troll may be hardier (higher body).

[CanRay]

Exactly. In 100 years from Shadowrun, there'd start to be changes seen in culture to deal with issues of longevity and so on, but in the 2050s-2070s, it's just not an issue.

[Fuchs]

I'd already say it is an issue, just not elves vs. the rest, but "rich vs. poor" - and that has been an issue for SR since SR1. A number of important people are nearing their "retirement age", but are as healthy as a 20 year old thanks to leonisation. That's bound to create some issues, which usually lead to runs. "Help my dad retire, he won't do it else" Johnsons anyone?

In my games, the rich do not age, and are not ugly (unless they want to). And the poor age and often look ugly, no matter their race. Pollution will ravage any human of any race.

(In SR2, one of my longest running story arcs centered around a cabal of rich people investigating various ways to become effectively immortal, from vampirism to cybernetic bodies to copying your consciousness into the matrix to genetech and nanoware regenerators. I am not sure my players ever figured the link to all those runs out.)