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> Arsenal Weapon Mount vs. Smart Firing Platform
kigmatzomat
post Apr 27 2008, 04:53 PM
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I've finally laid my hands on a copy of Arsenal and am scratching my head at the vehicle weapon mounts.

In Arsenal an External Visibility, Flexible Flexibility (Gah. Get a thesaurus) weapon mount with a 90 degree horizontal/vertical range of movement and a remote control costs 4,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . (1,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) + 2000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) +500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ). There's no recoil penalty, assuming you aren't mounting it on a small-ish drone (Arsenal p.105), and it stores 250 rounds of ammo. However you still need to shell out more nuyen for a targeting autosoft if you want your Pilot to be able to use the weapon.

Contrast to the smart firing platform from the main book, which is a remote control robotic tripod with 180 degree horizontal/60degree vertical movement and it's own rating 3 pilot/sensor/targeting autosoft for 2,000Y. Admittedly, you're limited to the gun's standard magazine and only get 6 points of recoil comp.

Why wouldn't I just slap gas vents on the weapon to get 9+ points of recoil comp and bolt down a smart firing platform, saving something like 2,600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ? Is having 250 rounds of ammo worth 2,600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ?

I'd been using the belief that the SR4 BB weapon mount (2,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) was vehicle-mounted smart platform that traded in the electronics for an ammo bin.
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Tarantula
post Apr 27 2008, 04:57 PM
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Well, for one, if you've got a good gunner, you won't be using a targeting soft, and the gunner will perform better anyway. For two, suppressive fire is good. Suppressive fire with a high-velocity full auto gun is better. Not running out of ammo for it for a very long time is priceless.
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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 05:05 PM
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"There are somethings in life that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) can't buy,
For other things, there's Steel-Jacketed High Velocity Rounds.

Accepted everywhere there's guns."
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Larme
post Apr 27 2008, 05:07 PM
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My question is: when would you EVER want an external weapon mount? That is something Shadowrunners generally cannot have and get away with it.

But yeah, also there's the issue of reloading a gun that's bolted onto your car while driving. Hard to do.
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WearzManySkins
post Apr 27 2008, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 27 2008, 12:07 PM) *
My question is: when would you EVER want an external weapon mount? That is something Shadowrunners generally cannot have and get away with it.

As the Devs(Synner) have repeatably stated the gear is not just for shadowrunners, but every one else ie security forces etc.

WMS
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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 05:16 PM
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Or Shadowrunners posing as Security Forces.
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WearzManySkins
post Apr 27 2008, 05:27 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 27 2008, 12:16 PM) *
Or Shadowrunners posing as Security Forces.

Why that would never happen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS
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CanRay
post Apr 27 2008, 05:32 PM
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I can think of a number of reasons...

Founding a Corporation is pretty easy, after all, getting Security License, slightly less so...

But, then you get all the fun toys in the Ares Catalogue.
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Aaron
post Apr 27 2008, 05:37 PM
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Aren't there places in the world where you would want an externally-mounted vehicle? Actually, I think there's a source book coming out along that very theme. Hell, there are parts of Seattle where that would be useful.
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Aaron
post Apr 27 2008, 05:38 PM
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Wouldn't a smart firing platform in a vehicle suffer from the "firing from a moving vehicle" penalty?
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Larme
post Apr 27 2008, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 27 2008, 01:07 PM) *
My question is: when would you EVER want an external weapon mount? That is something Shadowrunners generally cannot have and get away with it.


Hence the generally, folks. Obviously you could imagine a situation where Shadowrunners would be able to get away with external mounts. But it's definitely not the norm.
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Shrike30
post Apr 27 2008, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 27 2008, 10:38 AM) *
Wouldn't a smart firing platform in a vehicle suffer from the "firing from a moving vehicle" penalty?


Yes. The question is, however, does a Pilot(program)-controlled vehicle suffer the "firing from a moving vehicle" penalty when using it's weapon-mount attached weapon? That may not be unique to the smart firing platform.

Smart Firing Platforms have to have their software and hardware (Pilot, Sensor, Targeting autosoft at 3, baseline) upgraded seperately of the vehicle, unless you want only 8 dice worth of pool (not counting modifiers except the Smartgun bonus) firing out to a max range of 400 meters (Sensor max range). Vehicle-mount weapons benefit from the sensors, etc of the vehicle. If the Pilot is remotely operating the smart firing platform using it's own rating, it may encounter issues with trying to drive and shoot at the same time.

And when you move out of the realm of small arms and start using main guns (weapons that actually provide some serious firepower, in other words), you can't use a smart firing platform (main guns don't have an underbarrel mount (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). HMG's with recoil compensation are all well and good, but gauss guns and autocannons are a whole other can of worms.

Wait till you see a Hotspur with a flexible turreted human-controlled autocannon bolted to the back pouring lead up into the sky at the dragon chasing it across the wastes at a hundred miles an hour. You'll know why those big guns are necessary then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)
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kigmatzomat
post Apr 27 2008, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron @ Apr 27 2008, 12:38 PM) *
Wouldn't a smart firing platform in a vehicle suffer from the "firing from a moving vehicle" penalty?


If the blurb on the "Gyro Link" (Ars. p136) is to believed, all weapons suffer a maneuvering penalty. Although that that contradicts the BBB p.162 that says a -3 penalty applies only to handheld weapons and specifically excludes weapons on a pintle or ring mount (which are phrases never used again in the BBB or Arsenal).

So if it the penalty applies, the firing platform wouldn't perform much worse, if any, since it has Pilot+Sensor of 6 for a superior weapon lock against most commercial vehicles. Plus the Pilot has to spend an IP each turn to drive so the platform gets more shooting actions.


QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 27 2008, 12:07 PM)
My question is: when would you EVER want an external weapon mount? That is something Shadowrunners generally cannot have and get away with it.


It's either irrelevant or more weirdness in the weapon mount rules.

The cost to change the concealability of Arsenal weapon mounts is a constant, regardless of type. Let me repeat that a different way: the cost to conceal an SMG that points straight forward is the same same to conceal an autocannon on a turret.
So if you agree with the notion that the cost to provide a -2/-6 to Concealability is independent of weapon size, it's irrelevant. If not then it's another "WTF?" moment.


QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 27 2008, 03:07 PM)
And when you move out of the realm of small arms and start using main guns (weapons that actually provide some serious firepower, in other words), you can't use a smart firing platform (main guns don't have an underbarrel mount ). HMG's with recoil compensation are all well and good, but gauss guns and autocannons are a whole other can of worms.


That's a false comparison since the BBB vehicle weapon mount was limited to LMGs while the smart firing platform goes up to HMGs and Assault Cannons. The Smart Firing Platform is equivalent to a "reinforced" Arsenal weapon mount.

Arsenal does make the poin that very few vehicles can actually sport a main gun since it a) requires a Body 14 and b) should be able to deal with the recoil of something worthy of the name "main gun."

QUOTE
Wait till you see a Hotspur with a flexible turreted human-controlled autocannon bolted to the back pouring lead up into the sky


Arsenal says that a full blown tank may be limited to a single heavy turret while small, maneuverable aircraft may be not even get a standard turret. The Tata's got the required 14+ body required to mount a main gun capable Heavy Turret but it's also a racing vehicle so it isn't as massive as any other Body 16 vehicle would be. I'd think a tank-grade turret would either weigh the Tata down or the recoil would risk flipping it over.
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Shrike30
post Apr 28 2008, 06:38 AM
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Something like a 120mm cannon would be excessive for a Hotspur, sure... but a big, heavy caliber automatic (light autocannon) or something like a recoilless rifle would work out fine. Think about a "technical" for a second... take pickup truck, bolt a heavy weapon on a mount on the back, stick some guy back there to man it. That's more what I was getting at.

A weapon system like the 30mm ASP (a cannon that was intended to fit anything that a M2HB could be mounted onto) would let you get a serious amount of firepower off the back of a fairly light vehicle.

As for a "false comparison," I'm not sure what you mean. Pretty obviously, the Arsenal rules for mounting weapons on vehicles are meant to expand on the BBB's, whereas the Smart Firing Platform hasn't really seen much of an update.
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Rasumichin
post Apr 28 2008, 09:20 AM
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QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 27 2008, 08:07 PM) *
Wait till you see a Hotspur with a flexible turreted human-controlled autocannon bolted to the back pouring lead up into the sky at the dragon chasing it across the wastes at a hundred miles an hour. You'll know why those big guns are necessary then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)


Been there, done that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Larme
post Apr 28 2008, 10:33 AM
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Another thing: when jumped into the vehicle, the rigger can fire the vehicle's weapon mounts using sensor + gunnery. But the rigger can't jump into the smart firing platform while rigging the vehicle, so the platform is going off its own pool, which is probably smaller.
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kigmatzomat
post Apr 28 2008, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 28 2008, 05:33 AM) *
Another thing: when jumped into the vehicle, the rigger can fire the vehicle's weapon mounts using sensor + gunnery. But the rigger can't jump into the smart firing platform while rigging the vehicle, so the platform is going off its own pool, which is probably smaller.



Actually, they can. The RAW states the smart firing platform can be remote operated, so there's no reason you can't subscribe the smart platform to the vehicle via optical cable and let the pilot (or rigger) use the platform just like the "remote operated" Arsenal mounts.
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Tarantula
post Apr 28 2008, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Apr 28 2008, 08:12 AM) *
Actually, they can. The RAW states the smart firing platform can be remote operated, so there's no reason you can't subscribe the smart platform to the vehicle via optical cable and let the pilot (or rigger) use the platform just like the "remote operated" Arsenal mounts.


No, you can't. If you are jumped into the vehicle, then you aren't in the smart firing mount (which is its own drone). If you're in the smart firing mount, you're not in the vehicle. You can't jump into two drones at once.
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kigmatzomat
post Apr 28 2008, 02:55 PM
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QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 28 2008, 01:38 AM) *
Something like a 120mm cannon would be excessive for a Hotspur, sure... but a big, heavy caliber automatic (light autocannon) or something like a recoilless rifle would work out fine. Think about a "technical" for a second... take pickup truck, bolt a heavy weapon on a mount on the back, stick some guy back there to man it. That's more what I was getting at.


The weapons you are describing are not, by SR4 definition, "main guns." They are weight and recoil-comparable to HMGs. SR would probably model them as miniguns, assault cannons, or maybe a rockets for the recoilless rifle.

The very definition of "main gun" is that it's so big you can't just bolt it to pintle mount on a pickup. They must be in a fixed mount, or on a heavy turret, attached to a vehicle with Body 14, and the GM is recommended to seriously think about whether that specific Body 14 vehicle can really handle the stress of a main gun. A heavy laser would probably be okay for a Hotspur, assuming you wanted to deal with the ton of capacitors you need to lug around to fire it. Any kinetic weapon that needs the stability of a heavy turret will tear a pickup apart.

A pintle mount is a pin-type mount that an weapon can be bolted to and pivoted/rotated by hand. This is exactly what a tripod is, except a tripod is self supporting rather than attached to a vehicle. Weld a tripod to a vehicle and you have a pintle mount. And If you can mount it on a tripod, you can mount it on a smart firing platform.


QUOTE
As for a "false comparison," I'm not sure what you mean. Pretty obviously, the Arsenal rules for mounting weapons on vehicles are meant to expand on the BBB's, whereas the Smart Firing Platform hasn't really seen much of an update.


The "false comparison" was you saying you were comparing "main gun vs. smaller smart platform-friendly weapon" when you were really comparing "smart platform-friendly weapon vs. smart platform-friendly weapon."
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kigmatzomat
post Apr 28 2008, 03:11 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 28 2008, 09:29 AM) *
No, you can't. If you are jumped into the vehicle, then you aren't in the smart firing mount (which is its own drone). If you're in the smart firing mount, you're not in the vehicle. You can't jump into two drones at once.


"remote control" can mean a couple of things in SR.
1. Rigger "jumps into" drone/vehicle/smart firing platform
2. intelligent being uses joystick/AR/VR to aim the gun/drive the drone/vehicle
3. intelligent being uses AR/VR/voice command to tell the platform's Pilot to "shoot that red thing to the south."

With the exception of #3, you can ignore the drone aspect of the firing platform because the onboard AI is just twiddling it's virtual thumbs while the user does the work. If you wire the platform up in Remote (#2) mode to the base vehicle, it should be just as accessible to the rigger and vehicle's Pilot as any other "remote controlled" weapon mount in Arsenal.


If you don't like that, wrap your head around this:
What's the difference between an Arsenal remote controlled turret equipped with a pilot-enabled weapon and a BBB smart firing platform with a normal weapon? Is the rigger prevented from firing the pilot-enabled weapon while jumped in to the base vehicle?
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Nightwalker450
post Apr 28 2008, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 28 2008, 09:29 AM) *
No, you can't. If you are jumped into the vehicle, then you aren't in the smart firing mount (which is its own drone). If you're in the smart firing mount, you're not in the vehicle. You can't jump into two drones at once.


Why can't you jump into 2 drones at once? It is possible to exist in multiple nodes in the matrix. Just if you are jumped into multiple nodes, you are vulnerable on multiple nodes. Just as long as the necessary drive actions are being taken care of.

And as stated there's always remote-control actions to handle it without being jumped in.
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Tarantula
post Apr 28 2008, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Apr 28 2008, 09:11 AM) *
"remote control" can mean a couple of things in SR.
1. Rigger "jumps into" vehicle
2. intelligent being uses joystick/AR/VR to aim the gun
3. intelligent being uses AR/VR/voice command to tell the platform's Pilot to "shoot that red thing to the south."

With the exception of #3, you can ignore the drone aspect of the firing platform because the onboard AI is just twiddling it's virtual thumbs while the user does the work. If you wire the platform up in Remote (#2) mode to the base vehicle, it should be just as accessible to the rigger and vehicle's Pilot as any other "remote controlled" weapon mount in Arsenal.

Sure, you can do that.

QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Apr 28 2008, 09:11 AM) *
If you don't like that, wrap your head around this:
What's the difference between an Arsenal remote controlled turret equipped with a pilot-enabled weapon and a BBB smart firing platform with a normal weapon? Is the rigger prevented from firing the pilot-enabled weapon while jumped in to the base vehicle?

A smart firing platform can't move on its own. Technically, you can't mount one on a vehicle.
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kigmatzomat
post Apr 28 2008, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 28 2008, 10:24 AM) *
Technically, you can't mount one on a vehicle.


Why would you say that? I guarantee I could bolt, weld, or epoxy a smart firing platform onto any vehicle big enough for a person to use. They might not be able to use the vehicle comfortably when I'm done, but it'll be mounted there.


There are even rules for it in Arsenal; IIRC, they call it "special machinery" option, like an integrated toolkit on the Vulcan repair drone.

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Tarantula
post Apr 28 2008, 03:48 PM
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Except, theres already weapon mods for vehicles, its called weapon mounts. As it stands, special machinery requires GM approval for anything. I can't think of any sane GM who would allow you to bolt/weld/etc your smart firing platforms on, instead of just pointing you to the weapon mounts instead.
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CanRay
post Apr 28 2008, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Apr 28 2008, 10:48 AM) *
Except, theres already weapon mods for vehicles, its called weapon mounts. As it stands, special machinery requires GM approval for anything. I can't think of any sane GM who would allow you to bolt/weld/etc your smart firing platforms on, instead of just pointing you to the weapon mounts instead.

*Blinks*

...

I'm sorry, you lost me... "Sane GM"?

The two words make sense apart, but when together...
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