Alternate Damage Bar, Cause Hit Points are for D&D Options

[nathanross]

Ive been thinking for quite some time how to make a better damage/armor system for SR4 that is easier to keep track of and manage.

The first issue is Damage boxes. I do not like having to take body for a vehicle and divide by two then add that to 8 before I know how many total boxes it has. That is stupid. Most metahumans have ~10. 10 is also how many boxes we had before. I like 10. In fact, here is the new proposed damage bar:

1. -1DP, -1 Initiative
3. -2DP, -2 Initiative
6. -3DP, -3 Initiative
10. Unconscious

Now that we have a standard damage bar, lets deal with the fucked up armor system for SR4. Armor is now just soak dice, which also determine the rating at which a bullet does stun (or no damage in the case of Hardened. Because we are limited to Body*2 Armor without suffering encumbrance, a maxed armor character will have Body*3 dice to soak damage with (I am of course avoiding FFBA). Now, I have not come up with numbers yet for the armors, but I think a system of DV = DV - Armor is better than our current system of rolling 30 dice for trolls to soak.

Of course this requires a change in Weapons (and I do hate the current damage codes, Assault Rifle = LMG?)
Hold-Out Pistol: 3DV
Light Pistol: 4DV
Machine Pistol: 4DV
SMG: 5DV
Heavy Pistol: 6DV
Assault Rifle: 6DV
Rifle: 7DV
Shotgun: 7DV
LMG: 7DV
MMG: 8DV
HMG: 9DV
Sniper Rifle: 10DV 9DV
Assault Cannon: 15DV

Also, to bring back the Physical to Stun limit, if the base DV of the weapon (modified only by Ammo) does not exceed Armor rating, then the damage is treated as stun (the weapon does no damage if the armor is hardened). Also, because I am sick of knocked out Trolls, and I think that all Shadowrunners should aspire to not kill (but it is harder to do so), Stun damage is resisted with Body + Willpower, while Physical is resisted with just Body.

Well, that's the basics, hope you like!

[Speed Wraith]

I've been thinking about just using a slightly modified version of the old system myself, just because I caught myself telling my players that so-and-so suffered a serious wound, "Or what we would have called a serious wound in the old days." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Generally, I don't mind the way it is now just because it does make things like high/low pain tolerance a bit easier to use so I'm still up in the air.

[Jaid]

soo... is there a reason you don't just play SR3?

[deek]

Yeah, there is a lot of negative vibe in that first post...

[ArkonC]

I'm not sure who proposed this one, but the WoD health bar adaption was a good idea...
P damage bar is 8+bod/2, then add will/2 as extra stun boxes...
/ = stun damage; X = physical damage...
so if you take 8+bod/2 damage you go in overflow...
and if you take less physical damage than that but fill up 8+bod/2+will/2 with that and stun, you're knocked out...

Or something...

[Nightwalker450]

I'm not sure who proposed this one, but the WoD health bar adaption was a good idea...
P damage bar is 8+bod/2, then add will/2 as extra stun boxes...
/ = stun damage; X = physical damage...
so if you take 8+bod/2 damage you go in overflow...
and if you take less physical damage than that but fill up 8+bod/2+will/2 with that and stun, you're knocked out...

Or something...

I think that was my layout. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
And the 8+bod/2 had to be physical damage for it to be overflow... Stun did nothing until it completely filled (at which point you were knocked out, and started converting to physical damage)

[ArkonC]

I think that was my layout. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
And the 8+bod/2 had to be physical damage for it to be overflow... Stun did nothing until it completely filled (at which point you were knocked out, and started converting to physical damage)

Yeah, that too... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nathanross]

I'm not sure who proposed this one, but the WoD health bar adaption was a good idea...
P damage bar is 8+bod/2, then add will/2 as extra stun boxes...
/ = stun damage; X = physical damage...
so if you take 8+bod/2 damage you go in overflow...
and if you take less physical damage than that but fill up 8+bod/2+will/2 with that and stun, you're knocked out...

Or something...

That is just way too complex for me. This is why I said I want an absolute number of damage boxes, and all things under the sun will have the same number. As for why I dont just go and play SR3: I like the core mechanic of SR4, and a lot of the simplicity of its systems (though some need more complexity). I want to make SR4 a better game, by taking what could be better, and making it so. I dont see why that is so hard to understand.

Im still waiting for someone to tell me that it is much harder to resist the damage than it was in SR3 as there are less Body dice. Also, what is everyone's opinion on the Bod+Wil to resist Stun damage? I think it is a good idea.

[Heath Robinson]

I really disagree with your damage code table; Why the hell should a rifle round fired from an SA Sniping Rifle do more damage than that same round fired from an Assault Rifle when the fire selector is on SA? There is no gaddamn reason except metauniverse balance beliefs that state that heavier guns need to do more damage because that way there are upgrade paths for runners who want to do more damage, beyond getting better at shooting and combining mods to fit their weapons to their purpose.

[Aaron]

I'd like to take this opportunity to suggest two books.

First, the MechWarrior RPG. I really like its damage system, which is very similar to the "cross stuff out" system suggested above.

Second, the Compendium of Modern Firearms by Kevin Dockery. Every gamer in a modern or post-modern age should have this book (in my own humble-but-deadly-accurate opinion, of course).

[Synner667]

I'd like to take this opportunity to suggest two books.

First, the MechWarrior RPG. I really like its damage system, which is very similar to the "cross stuff out" system suggested above.

I use the damage system from Aeon Trinity, which is what SR v4.0 appears to be based on.

[nathanross]

I really disagree with your damage code table; Why the hell should a rifle round fired from an SA Sniping Rifle do more damage than that same round fired from an Assault Rifle when the fire selector is on SA? There is no gaddamn reason except metauniverse balance beliefs that state that heavier guns need to do more damage because that way there are upgrade paths for runners who want to do more damage, beyond getting better at shooting and combining mods to fit their weapons to their purpose.

You are completely correct. Why should a heavy pistol do more DV than an SMG, or a Rifle more than an Assault Rifle? If they are firing the exact same rounds (albeit with a different barrel length), shouldn't the damage be exactly the same? Yes and No. I am perfectly fine with the idea, but it is different than SR has ever been. Sure Sniper rifles (at least in our world) our exactly the same as normal rifles, though sometime with a higher caliber (Barrett, yay!). All that is usually different is the Ammo (APDS vs Normal). SR has always had a split however, and I am not one to change that. If you think there is a better way to do it, change it and present it!

[Heath Robinson]

You are completely correct. Why should a heavy pistol do more DV than an SMG, or a Rifle more than an Assault Rifle? If they are firing the exact same rounds (albeit with a different barrel length), shouldn't the damage be exactly the same? Yes and No. I am perfectly fine with the idea, but it is different than SR has ever been. Sure Sniper rifles (at least in our world) our exactly the same as normal rifles, though sometime with a higher caliber (Barrett, yay!). All that is usually different is the Ammo (APDS vs Normal). SR has always had a split however, and I am not one to change that. If you think there is a better way to do it, change it and present it!

A heavy pistol I can accept as doing more damage than an SMG on account of the fact that they are probably using a larger round. Heavy pistols don't need to be controllable under automatic fire. I can accept a sport rifle doing more damage than an assault rifle. They, too, don't need to be controllable under automatic fire and therefore can use a round with higher recoil. Things are different in SR, I had forgotten such a thing because the big differences are never explicitly stated. I primarily objected to the magnitude of the difference that you presented in your table. I saw that a sniping rifle did more damage than an HMG and that invoked a automatic reaction.

An LMG shouldn't be doing more damage than an assault rifle I believe, it's going to be firing pretty much the same round because militaries are into parts and round sharing between guns.

I really can't be much bothered to produce a class-based chart. The DVs given by the devs have not made me rage, so I would put them forward as good enough.

[Aaron]

I use the damage system from Aeon Trinity, which is what SR v4.0 appears to be based on.

...

Did you just say that SR4 is based on Aeon Trinity?

[nathanross]

So aside from Sniper rifle Damage code (which I reduced as per request), what else could/should be improved. What issues would there be?

[krakjen]

No more AP value in your system ?

[Ed_209a]

Here is what I would suggest (with contemporary examples). Unfortunately, it would break the current armor system...

Hold-Out Pistol: 4DV/+1 (.380/9mm)
Light Pistol: 4DV (9mm)
Machine Pistol: 4DV (9mm)
Heavy Pistol: 4DV/-1 (.45/.44M)
SMG: 5DV/-1 (9mm/.45)
Shotgun: 7DV/-1 (12ga Slug)
Assault Rifle: 5DV/-4 (5.56mm)
Rifle: 6DV/-6 (7.62mm)
LMG: 5DV/-4 (5.56mm)
MMG: 6DV/-6 (7.62mm)
HMG: 10DV/-8 (.50BMG)
Sniper Rifle: 10DV/-8 (.50BMG)
Assault Cannon: 15DV/-10 (20mm)

This represents the vast gulf in power between pistol ammo-based weapons, and rifle ammo-based weapons. Unfortunately, it would break the current armor system...

Each fix breaks something else. The more I try to "fix" SR4, the more I realize I am trying to make SR4 into GURPS. <shrug>.

So, I just take a deep breath and enjoy the setting and try to overlook the ridiculous bits.