AR For Grunts?, I can shoot and surf the web?! Options

[DocTaotsu]

AR for the Army, Marine Corps to follow in 20+ years.

I'm always apprehensive about more shit to distract people but this certainly sounds like a superior alternative to dicking around with a palm pilot.

[Magus]

Hey Doc now the guys in Eighty Duece can keep up with WOW while in the air waiting to drop. How cool is that?!?

Geez as if battlefield confusion and the 'fog of war' aren't bad enough as it is.

[Shiloh]

What I'd worry about is the "getting interrupted" thing. You're calling in a fire mission, and scrolling across the map on your monocle using your anywhere mouse, when hostiles pop up. You react, and dive for cover, and engage them and when you get back to your screen find that you've got an inbound stick of 155mm on your company command post because you didn't hit the "cancel" button, and using your weapon kept clicking "accept" via the microswitches on your hand.

[DocTaotsu]

Actually I'd be more interested in seeing the number of people who die while watching porn on their new wearable computers...

Shiloh:
I'd imagine and indeed fervently hope that things like calling in fire support, medevac, and so on would still require some sort of verbal communication to confirm. Otherwise it'll become a game of shooting up soldiers just enough so that you can run over and signal all kinds of havoc with their still warm AR gloves.

[Fuchs]

Actually I'd be more interested in seeing the number of people who die while watching porn on their new wearable computers...

Shiloh:
I'd imagine and indeed fervently hope that things like calling in fire support, medevac, and so on would still require some sort of verbal communication to confirm. Otherwise it'll become a game of shooting up soldiers just enough so that you can run over and signal all kinds of havoc with their still warm AR gloves.

Last time I served (M-113 mounted 120 mm mortars) our firing orders came by e-mail, no verbal confirmation with the spotters anymore. Yay for integrated fire control, especially when the high-ups muck up, and start mixing orders for the platoon that is doing live fire exercises, and the one that's doing mock-up "dry" exercises.

[Stahlseele]

and there you have it folks, that's how a "Hacker" should be played in SR4 . . wait untill the opposition got hurt enough and use their equipment to wreak even more havoc *g*

[DocTaotsu]

Last time I served (M-113 mounted 120 mm mortars) our firing orders came by e-mail, no verbal confirmation with the spotters anymore. Yay for integrated fire control, especially when the high-ups muck up, and start mixing orders for the platoon that is doing live fire exercises, and the one that's doing mock-up "dry" exercises.

Oops (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But where did this orders come from? Did that fireteam/platoon generate the order or did they have to talk to someone higher up first?

[Fuchs]

We've got spotter teams, usually in an "Eagle" (Our Hummer-variant) doing that. They are usually assigned a unit they follow, like a tank platoon or company, take up position, use their laser range finder to "shoot" a target, and the computer calculates the position of the target automatically. Then they enter what kind of ordnance they want fired, and for how long, and press send (or something like that), and the network forwards the order to the next available howitzer company (M-109) or mortar (M-113) platoon. The fire control team just forwards the orders with another push of a button to the individual pieces, after setting them up and entering their positions in the computer, and even the actual firing command is given by the spotter or his computer.

In that exercise, the spotter teams were training how to give such orders, and the fire platoons (3 to 4 M-113, and one command M-133) were training how to take position, aim and fire, and they mixed channels up, which resulted in orders for the one platoon doing "dry" exercises to load up.

[DocTaotsu]

Ah so we just have to hack the spotter than (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But there are no precautions to prevent someone from geeking your spotter teams and typing in their own fire requests?

[hobgoblin]

Oops (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But where did this orders come from? Did that fireteam/platoon generate the order or did they have to talk to someone higher up first?

hell, how did anyone get the idea that requesting artillery by email was a smart thing in the first place?!

i would rather have used a system where you specifically attach different platoons and so on together so that their communications can only go to others attached to them.

err, never mind...

[Drogos]

Ah so we just have to hack the spotter than (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But there are no precautions to prevent someone from geeking your spotter teams and typing in their own fire requests?

I imagine Training.

And no, you just intercept the spotter's wireless tranmission then spoof in your own command. If you take the time to decrypt the original transmission, it'll likely look right too. Electronic Warfare FTW!!!!

[Shiloh]

i would rather have used a system where you specifically attach different platoons and so on together so that their communications can only go to others attached to them.

You'd lose the flexibility of being able to respond with whatever indirect fire asset was currently available and in range and capable of executing the mission parameters.

[Fuchs]

I haven't been in such a team since 10 years, back when we still did such stuff by hand, and from a M-113, so I don't know what precautions there are. I have been stuck in fire control ever since, and at the end my post was reduced to give orders like "press the button, soldier" and parroting the soldier at the laptop when he announced that a fire order came in (Soldier1 : "Fire", me: "Fire", Soldier 2 pushes the button).

I assume that since they operate out of an armored vehicle, and don't have to leave the vehicle to spot and issue orders, the brass may think it's unlikely that someone will manage to capture such a vehicle while the communcation lines are open and the codes running. There's the usual "in case of immenent capture, destroy this" orders, of course.

(My opinion of the intelligence of the brass hasn't been the best ever since an exercise I was rated as failed for dragging a "wounded" into cover before putting his gas mask on his face during a chemical warfare alert. Apparently I was supposed to do this right where he "fell" - hit at night, by a sniper, I asked to make sure. It's right up with the "you there, you were just wounded! Stepped on a mine!" "Uh... someone put a mine on top of the tank I am standing on? Inside the barn our entier platoon has been hiding in since last night?")

[Fuchs]

hell, how did anyone get the idea that requesting artillery by email was a smart thing in the first place?!

i would rather have used a system where you specifically attach different platoons and so on together so that their communications can only go to others attached to them.

err, never mind...

Well, e-mail is safer than verbal communication, especially in an army where you've got 3 different languages. I haven't seen an e-mail mess up yet, but I have seen a 14,4 kg shell land 2 clicks off target after a Lt. "corrected" a verbal order ("That was "17", not "14"!").

[Fuchs]

I imagine Training.

And no, you just intercept the spotter's wireless tranmission then spoof in your own command. If you take the time to decrypt the original transmission, it'll likely look right too. Electronic Warfare FTW!!!!

Given the "quality" of our digital radios, in some cases you might need to be within 3 meters to be able to hack the signal, any further and you've got no connection (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (I never found out what was wrong that day, but if you mount high-tech radios in "tanks" with 50 years old power and antenna systems, don't expect peak performance in all units...) Says a lot about the comm tech if exercise orders finsih with "Communications are secured by radio. In the case of an emergency, use the officer's portable phone". Granted, that was 10 years ago, back when we were still using Vietnam-era analog radios.

[hobgoblin]

Well, e-mail is safer than verbal communication, especially in an army where you've got 3 different languages. I haven't seen an e-mail mess up yet, but I have seen a 14,4 kg shell land 2 clicks off target after a Lt. "corrected" a verbal order ("That was "17", not "14"!").

well true that, data on screen is allways better then verbal. something that worries me about airlines and similar to day...

but the more in depth explanation shows that email may only be the carrier, and that a more specialized interface is used to genereate said email. my first impression was that someone was typing out a bog standard email, complete with filling in the to address and therefor it ended up in the wrong place...

[Fuchs]

well true that, data on screen is allways better then verbal. something that worries me about airlines and similar to day...

but the more in depth explanation shows that email may only be the carrier, and that a more specialized interface is used to genereate said email. my first impression was that someone was typing out a bog standard email, complete with filling in the to address and therefor it ended up in the wrong place...

Ah, no, it's automated, integrated rangefinder and positioning system, and the orders go to a network, where they are passed on. Of course, it also means that one single major not flipping his laptop on on time can block the radio communication for an entire batallion...

[DocTaotsu]

well true that, data on screen is allways better then verbal. something that worries me about airlines and similar to day...

but the more in depth explanation shows that email may only be the carrier, and that a more specialized interface is used to genereate said email. my first impression was that someone was typing out a bog standard email, complete with filling in the to address and therefor it ended up in the wrong place...

That's what I was thinking too wink.gif I had this image of Fuch's sitting in his m113 surfing the net when a cheery "You've got mail!" sounds in german and a little icon pops up on his desktop with a subject header reading "Re: HE, 14k fire for effect and FWD: a really 'inspiring' story that probably isn't true at all"


At anyrate it doesn't sound like a system whereby some guy with a pair of gloves could inadvertently call down fire on his CP because he tripped going down some stairs.

[hobgoblin]

Ah, no, it's automated, integrated rangefinder and positioning system, and the orders go to a network, where they are passed on. Of course, it also means that one single major not flipping his laptop on on time can block the radio communication for an entire batallion...

so its not a bad back room hack job that it first sounded like. good to know...

[Magus]

I don't know about the glove. I mean I was in the infantry and I hated to have to shoot during the wintertime with the glove shells, we would typically just use the shell inserts. I mean I feel disconnected when I cannot truly feel the Trigger Housing and the trigger itself during movement.
Plus those AR gloves would really need to be shockproofed as well as weather/sand/enviromentally sealed/proofed.

Can you imagine going to MOPP lvl 2 or greater with those AR gloves under the Chemical Suit gloves. You would sweat more from your hands than anywhere else. Also what about the Airborne? Try grabbing and deploying your reserve chute if needed with gloves on.

I like the idea of the Future Fighter system. I like the ideal of every soldier being a Node, and the rear echelon can get a real time advantage of troop movement, capability and health of the troops down to the squad level. But I just don't want our guys to look like an astronaut in a NASA spacesuit.

[hobgoblin]

inputs on the go are a really big problem, but for military and civilian uses.

you want something thats within reach at a moments notice, thats out of the way when not needed, and that you dont have to look at to use...

[Fuchs]

Can you imagine going to MOPP lvl 2 or greater with those AR gloves under the Chemical Suit gloves. You would sweat more from your hands than anywhere else. Also what about the Airborne? Try grabbing and deploying your reserve chute if needed with gloves on.

Don't remind me of that day when we were ordered to put up our (state of the art, to give it its due, just really hot, with its "active filter inside a double-hull") NBC-suit on top of our battle fatigues instead of instead, then went on a march while it was 30+ degree celsius in the shade. Almost as funny, in hindsight, as when we were in that tear gas room, and then went out, and one guy didn't know that the stuff sticks to the suit for a bit - out the door, off goes the mask, in his eyes and nose goes the gas still drifting up from his suit... but he sort of sacrificed himself for the rest of us, who didn't make the same mistake.

[Fuchs]

inputs on the go are a really big problem, but for military and civilian uses.

you want something thats within reach at a moments notice, thats out of the way when not needed, and that you dont have to look at to use...

That's what the "Gefechtsordonnanz" is for I thought, the guy with the radio on his back following the Officer around.

[DocTaotsu]

Shooting with gloves sucks... sucks something awful. I've often said that I will gladly nuke a nation off the face of the planet for deploying CBR weapons not because they're so inherently horrible but rather because MOPP gear is the most soul crushing equipment I've ever had to deal with.

That said I think wearing gloves is becoming more common place but I deffer to Siege to tell it as it is. I'd also imagine that such a system would eventually become something lightweight that you could wear 24 hrs a day without really thinking about it. More like a couple of rings on your fingers or something.

Than of course you could just implant the damn things (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[DocTaotsu]

That's what the "Gefechtsordonnanz" is for I thought, the guy with the radio on his back following the Officer around.

Wow, never knew there was a german word for "Alternative Bullet Magnet"