Elemental Control, you know how you breathe air, how you walk the earth, how you're w Options

[Stahlseele]

how far would you let those spells go?
the human body is mostly made up out of water . . the human body breathes air and he walks the Earth . . ok, so not so much that last one but still!
could a mage with an high enough force shape element(water) separate the liquid from the solid in blood(a body?) could he control air humidity?
and shapeing air . . one can not even see air most of the time, i am reminded of casting magic missle at the darkness somehow . . can i make the air move around your head so you don't get to breathe anything?
and well, shape earth is pretty much obvious, making holes, letting people sink into the sand or something like that . . but can you turn lose sand into stone/rocks for example?
if i remember correctly, there was a table for SR3 in which lose sand, rocks and boulders were all affected by the spell but had their own target number to be affected . .
i think something like 4/6/8 but i ain't really sure . .
so, ideas, suggestions?
are they the most dangerous spells ever? or just nifty flashy showy not worth the drain?
as for my posting style, i have no idea what this post will look like to you . . 2 new 22" widescreen displays fuck up my perception rolls for those kinda things @.@

[WeaverMount]

I think that something about essence/aura keeps you from being about to yank the water, air, or iron out of someone's body. Especially because magic is largely symbolic there isn't actually water in a body so much as flesh.

I do think that you could remove the air from around someone, and yeah that would be pretty deadly ... if all my character didn't live in chem-sealed armor with internal air supplies.

[HentaiZonga]

It also depends on the elemental associations of your Tradition.

For example: I'm a pseudo-Hermetic; my elemental traditions look like:

Combat - Fire
Detection - Air
Illusion - Water
Health - Wood
Manipulation - Earth

So for me, there are five Elements, and all living things represent the Element of Wood. The thing about Wood is, it's hard like Earth, but also sort of soft like Water; it reaches into the Earth for nourishment, draws Water and Air into itself, and stores the Fire of the Sun to give itself life - and releases that Fire when burned. Wood is life, and Wood represents any place where the four Natural Elements come together into such an intricate weaving of Threads that they make a new Pattern. That new Pattern is made up physically of Earth, of Air, of Water, and of Fire, but it is its own Pattern with its own Name, and must be addressed as such.

One does not say of one's hand, "this particular warm chunk of carbon and water and calcium moves where I bid it, reports its condition to me when injured or in contact with other objects, and is a particularly deft tool for fine manipulation". No - one says, "This is My Hand." It is that distinction that gives your hand Essence, and thus weaves it inexorably into your Pattern.

Another thing: a Fire elemental is not a Fire elemental because it is made out of fire, and likewise, the Elemental Plane of Fire is not the Elemental Plane of Fire because it's made out of fire. Rather, fire is Fire because it's the closest thing to what Fire elementals and the Elemental Plane of Fire are made of. It shares their nature, and thus mana - which pours from the Metaplanes into the Astral in a torrent during the nadir of their approach - responds to fire as it would to Fire, and collects and pools around fire as it would around Fire because "like seeks out like". Have you ever noticed that lava is Fire even though it's really just melted earth, but ice is still Water even though it's frozen? This is because mana responds to lava, and sees Fire. And sometimes, if you go deep enough into a volcano or a raging forest fire, you'll find places where the mana has pooled enough to bring a tiny shard of the metaplane with it, which we call True Fire. This happens with all the elements - even Wood. Even at this scale, though, if there's enough mana, it will suffuse all the different elements, and the strain of imbuing mundane matter with the aspects of all the Elements instead produces orichalcum.


Does all this make sense?

[Stahlseele]

to somebody like AH probably, but not to me, at least not in this context *g*
yeah, there was a bit about magic only being able to affect THE WHOLE so no influencing the water inside some body . .

[Tarantula]

I think that something about essence/aura keeps you from being about to yank the water, air, or iron out of someone's body. Especially because magic is largely symbolic there isn't actually water in a body so much as flesh.

I do think that you could remove the air from around someone, and yeah that would be pretty deadly ... if all my character didn't live in chem-sealed armor with internal air supplies.

Except, the mage gets to shape the air how he wants... and its an area effect spell, so say, force 3-4 would be sufficient to have all the air in a sphere around you leave, that would include the air in your internal air tank (well, as soon as it was opened anyway.)

Still not that deadly, since characters can move 10 meters pretty easily, and suddenly they can breathe again (while it takes the mage a complex action to move where the no-air sphere is at.

[paws2sky]

@HentaiZonga: Neat tradition. I think I may borrow it. Don't suppose you've played Mage at some point in the past?

-paws

[HentaiZonga]

@HentaiZonga: Neat tradition. I think I may borrow it. Don't suppose you've played Mage at some point in the past?

-paws

Quite a bit, actually. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It was my primary game during the entirety of the 90's.

[WeaverMount]

that would include the air in your internal air tank (well, as soon as it was opened anyway.)

I thought the only way to effect something with magic without LOS was ritual magic and "Grenading" around corners with indirect AoE spells.

[Tarantula]

I thought the only way to effect something with magic without LOS was ritual magic and "Grenading" around corners with indirect AoE spells.

If you cast turn to goo on someone, you don't have to see their heart for it to get gooified. It affects the person.

If you cast shape earth on a volume of earth, you don't need to see the entire area (otherwise you'd only be able to move the very top layer at a time), you just have to see the centerpoint, and can then shape earth within that area of effect.

Same with the air, you can move the air within the area.

[paws2sky]

Quite a bit, actually. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It was my primary game during the entirety of the 90's.

I figured. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was more of a Werewolf player, myself. The Mage GMs around here were kind of... difficult. Either you could do everything with Entropy (or the GM's "pet" sphere) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif) or you had to agree with their personal take on what your tradition should be like (don't RP the GM's pet or hated tradition "wrong," or else).

Anyway...

Back OT: Pretty much agree with Tarantula on this one. You don't need to peel away at the layers of earth to be able to affect a volume of earth. It just needs to be within the area of the spell (and subject to any other appropriate limits).

-paws

[HentaiZonga]

I figured. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was more of a Werewolf player, myself. The Mage GMs around here were kind of... difficult. Either you could do everything with Entropy (or the GM's "pet" sphere) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif) or you had to agree with their personal take on what your tradition should be like (don't RP the GM's pet or hated tradition "wrong," or else).

*nod* I always hated that, and was always afraid of doing it myself - so I therefore made a strong effort to work with my players. I tend to do the same thing in Shadowrun, and it can sometimes make me a bit annoying as a GM. If someone decides they want to be a Bear shaman, for example, I'll typically throw a bunch of anthropology-based questions at them. "Which culture's Bear? What does Bear mean to your character? Is your character channeling the power of a specific Bear spirit, or the archetypical Bear-God? Does all his magic come from Bear, or just some of it? When you ask Bear for help with a combat spell, what do you imagine happens?" - unfortunately, a lot of the time, the sort of response I get is "shit, I dunno man! I just wanna be a Bear shaman! Like it says in the book!"

[paws2sky]

unfortunately, a lot of the time, the sort of response I get is "shit, I dunno man! I just wanna be a Bear shaman! Like it says in the book!"

In my most recent game, I had a PnP newbie (and WoW refugee) in my group.

She decided she wanted a troll shamaness, but none of the Totems we rattled off really jumped out at her. So, she spent a long time reading all the totem descriptions, asking questions about the advantages and disadvantages of each, and so on. Finally, she settled on Raven. Why Raven, I asked? She had two reasons. The first was that her 8' 6" tall, rail-thin troll shamaness was a goth and Raven was the most goth Totem in the books. And second, in SR1/2/3 Manipulation spells were all over the place in what they could do (SR's Entropy sphere *shudder*), so it struck her as the most powerful spell type. She did a decent job RPing, especially for a PnP newbie, so I just rolled with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-paws

[HentaiZonga]

In my most recent game, I had a PnP newbie (and WoW refugee) in my group.

She decided she wanted a troll shamaness, but none of the Totems we rattled off really jumped out at her. So, she spent a long time reading all the totem descriptions, asking questions about the advantages and disadvantages of each, and so on. Finally, she settled on Raven. Why Raven, I asked? She had two reasons. The first was that her 8' 6" tall, rail-thin troll shamaness was a goth and Raven was the most goth Totem in the books. And second, in SR1/2/3 Manipulation spells were all over the place in what they could do (SR's Entropy sphere *shudder*), so it struck her as the most powerful spell type. She did a decent job RPing, especially for a PnP newbie, so I just rolled with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-paws

Yeah, SR1-3 Manipulation was definitely the uber-group. I had to lay some smack-down on my group when I was GMing, when I noticed that they were all taking Earth-aspected Elemental Mages, and had come up with custom versions of Manipulation spells that did... well, everything. Light-based elemental Manipulations instead of Illusion spells! Damaging Manipulations instead of Combat spells! Shapeshift and partial shapeshift Manipulations instead of Detection spells! Repairative Fleshsculpt Manipulations instead of Health spells! Time-based Manipulations instead of Increase Reflexes!

Thank the Gods SR4 cleaned all that up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[paws2sky]

Back on topic...

I suddenly had this mental image of an old Kahuna using Control Water and/or Water Spirits to create the perfect waves for surfing.

(Kind of a pop culture bastardization of Kahuna, I know.)

[HentaiZonga]

Back on topic...

I suddenly had this mental image of an old Kahuna using Control Water and/or Water Spirits to create the perfect waves for surfing.

(Kind of a pop culture bastardization of Kahuna, I know.)

Man... a Magician Adept Surfer Dude (following Shark, obviously) would fraggin' ROCK as a character idea.

I MUST MAKE HIM!

[paws2sky]

Man... a Magician Adept Surfer Dude (following Shark, obviously) would fraggin' ROCK as a character idea.

I MUST MAKE HIM!

I was figuring he'd follow Sea or Dolphin, but Shark could work, especially if he was one of the militants that help liberate Hawaii when he was young... Hmm.

-paws

[Stahlseele]

make him a Dwarf and he can surf in the gutters of seattle too . . . eeeww x.x . .
that's like surfing the ankh in close proximity of morporek <.< . .

[HentaiZonga]

I was figuring he'd follow Sea or Dolphin, but Shark could work, especially if he was one of the militants that help liberate Hawaii when he was young... Hmm.

-paws

Yeah, Sea or Dolphin would work pretty well, too.

Hrm. Perhaps Sea would work best, in fact.

[paws2sky]

I can see it now...

Its not often that Mr. Johnson wants to meet at a beach, especially not one as luxurious and, well, clean as one like this. You feel open and exposed, out away from the pressing hustle and bustle of the city. Nothing between you and the sky and the pounding surf. You feel yourself starting to even relax a little, but that quickly fades as you remember where you are and what you're doing.

Glancing out to sea, you see a lone surfer quietly greeting the dawn. Just as the sun breaches the horizon, it suddenly disappears again. Not sure at first what you're seeing, your optics zoom out past the surfer. One of the largest waves you've ever seen is coming your way!

Quickly retreating to the edge of the beach, you watch as the lone surfer greets the wave with a joyful shout. Even a bunch of city rats like can you recognize the skill the surfer exhibits as he rides the wave in to the shore. His face is full of joy and exhilaration as he gather his board and walks unerringly toward your position.

"Aloha! You look like people our mutual friend talked about. I'm Mr. Johnson. Let's talk business. You had breakfast? I've got some pizza in the oven if you're hungry."

[HentaiZonga]

I can see it now...

Its not often that Mr. Johnson wants to meet at a beach, especially not one as luxurious and, well, clean as one like this. You feel open and exposed, out away from the pressing hustle and bustle of the city. Nothing between you and the sky and the pounding surf. You feel yourself starting to even relax a little, but that quickly fades as you remember where you are and what you're doing.

Glancing out to sea, you see a lone surfer quietly greeting the dawn. Just as the sun breaches the horizon, it suddenly disappears again. Not sure at first what you're seeing, your optics zoom out past the surfer. One of the largest waves you've ever seen is coming your way!

Quickly retreating to the edge of the beach, you watch as the lone surfer greets the wave with a joyful shout. Even a bunch of city rats like can you recognize the skill the surfer exhibits as he rides the wave in to the shore. His face is full of joy and exhilaration as he gather his board and walks unerringly toward your position.

"Aloha! You look like people our mutual friend talked about. I'm Mr. Johnson. Let's talk business. You had breakfast? I've got some pizza in the oven if you're hungry."

Hell yeah. The Sea shaman's -1 dice for Negotiation tests works perfectly for my idea of this guy, too - he's just too damn honest (and stuck on his "life is too short for bullshit" philosophy) to pull anything over anyone.

[paws2sky]

I think we have a winner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[paws2sky]

Other not-really-runners that could make use of Control Element:

• A magical adept NAN fire jumper. Uses all variation of Control Element in his/her job.
• A magician archaeologist, using Control Earth to speed up and excavation. He probably would use the spell to delicately strip away soil, layer by layer, but it'd be waaaaay faster than using traditional tools.
• A magician firefighter using Control Water and Control Fire (and probably backed up by a Spirit of Man that is sustaining one or the other) to rapidly douse a blaze.
• A special forces magical adept HAHO jumper using Control Air to land exactly where he wants to.
• A sailboater using Control Air and Control Water to help speed his/her trip.

Something about Control Element really just screams Magical Adept to me...

-paws

[Stahlseele]

yeah, most of the time, but i was thinking more along the ways of . . gods i hate myself for this . . avatar utilizing all elements . .

[HentaiZonga]

[*]A magician archaeologist, using Control Earth to speed up and excavation. He probably would use the spell to delicately strip away soil, layer by layer, but it'd be waaaaay faster than using traditional tools.

Ohhh WOW. Can you IMAGINE the sort of work that could be done by an Awakened archeologist with Control Earth, Catalog, and Fix?

[paws2sky]

yeah, most of the time, but i was thinking more along the ways of . . gods i hate myself for this . . avatar utilizing all elements . .

No, no. Don't hate yourself for referencing Avatar. For a kid-friendly anime, its really not that bad. And it has some interesting ideas about how the elements work and interact. For instance, burning Coal can be bent by both and Earth and Fire benders... (if I remember that episode right.)

Its certainly better than Blue Dragon. And its light years ahead of *unintelligible noise* Digimon or Pokemon...

(Of course, nothing really beats Cyborg009 for totally-cheesy-coolness-factor.)