Thoughts on Current Vehicle Customization, or Does Arsenal REALLY replace Rigger 4??? Options

[Drogos]

I'm just kind of curious on the general consensus here from those who are familiar with the Rigger series of books. Is what is in Arsenal enough to completely rule out any need for Rigger 4? I'm just curious what everyone's takes are on this. I'll likely be ignored though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

I felt it was missing one thing.

So I wrote it up myself:

Harley-Davidson Shadowrunner (With Game Stats)

Buddy and I went through it with a fine-toothed comb, and it pretty much answers everything we wanted to know.

[Shiloh]

I personally feel that the vehicle modification rules are distinctly substandard.

[Drogos]

I personally feel that the vehicle modification rules are distinctly substandard.

Any particular reasons/comments/concerns?

[Fortune]

I think Arsenal's rules are adequete enough that a dedicated Rigger book is not necessary.

[vladski]

I'd say from the looks of things, it is all we are gonna get.

I still want seating/doors on the tables. To me, that was a ridiculous oversight. Not a huge personal issue since I have the Rigger 2 adn 3, but for a guy that's new to SR... it is. There's no way the arguments that either "it wouldn't fit in the book" or "they could confuse folks trying to fit in 4 trolls when it's meant for 4 humans" stands.

Overall, tho' the book isn't bad. I always tended to abstract the rules anyway.

I will say something that jsut came up recently in my mind while making up a list of books from old editions that are pertinent and usable for SR4 for a new GM: The books from about halfway through SR3 to the current stuff are not as "readable" to me as the stuff from SR1,2 and early 3. While they are solid (most all of them a 3.5 on a 5 point scale), they lack a certain something "special." I would be hard pressed to say any of them are 4 or 4.5 books. I apologize to the current writers, some of which I know are regulars on these forums. I am not slamming your writing. They ARE good books, they jsut don't... capture me as much as some of the older ones.

Vlad

[DireRadiant]

Since SR5 has not been announced, Arsenal has certainly not replaced Rigger 4.

[Shiloh]

I personally feel that the vehicle modification rules are distinctly substandard.

Any particular reasons/comments/concerns?

The whole "slots" mechanic is pretty spurious. The costs (in slots and nuyen) in the tables look mostly arbitrarily assigned: tuning a suspension (if I remember the example I worked through) costs more than the entire car does, for example, yet other mods seem to have trivial prices. Without GM intervention, you can't, as far as I could see, put together "staples" of the genre (the anonymous but tricked-out sedan). Now, I've nothing against GM intervention, but it cuts in at such a low level of modification that the designers might as well just have saved the table space and the wordcount describing the limitations and used it to flesh out the descriptions some more, and simply list the mods alpabetically in one big table.

For my money, there aren't enough examples of the commonly useful/used vehicle types. My previous edition Rigger books are in storage so I can't really go to them for objective comparisons, but the *feeling* I have is that there were a lot more vehicles that runners might actually encounter. More than one cruiser bike, more than one trailbike, more limo's, more SUVs...

The books from about halfway through SR3 to the current stuff are not as "readable" to me as the stuff from SR1,2 and early 3. While they are solid (most all of them a 3.5 on a 5 point scale), they lack a certain something "special." I would be hard pressed to say any of them are 4 or 4.5 books. I apologize to the current writers, some of which I know are regulars on these forums. I am not slamming your writing. They ARE good books, they jsut don't... capture me as much as some of the older ones.

I can't speak so much for v3 books, but v4 certainly seem to be trying to cram too much into the space available. Topbars with the pictures in works (mostly) for the weapons section, but fails badly in the vehicles. The selection of which entries to illustrate and which to leave the pictures out for seems odd, somehow and having pictures not on the same page as the description *some of the time* is just confusing. The typesetting in all the books is sometimes substandard, again because, possibly, of space issues, and the readability suffers. The armour set tables were not intuitively laid out, nor self-explanatory.

I can see the pressures the designers were working under: there's a lot more "standard" stuff to include in the "basic" rules. In all the rule expansions, for that matter. But I'm not convinced the typography and page layout were necessarily the best they could be.

[Speed Wraith]

Hell, I still don't get how the stupid slot system works, but since a dedicated book isn't likely (or at least isn't at this point in time) then I'll just have to work with it. I wouldn't put a new RBB at the top of my must have list, but it would appear on that list somewhere.

[Shiloh]

Hell, I still don't get how the stupid slot system works...

That's probably cos it mostly doesn't... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMO, YMMV etc)

, but since a dedicated book isn't likely (or at least isn't at this point in time) then I'll just have to work with it.

I won't be. I'm just going to use the lists as a source of inspiration for stuff. Some of the numbers too, maybe, but it's probably less effort to have a look at auto parts prices than to struggle with the tables as they is writ if you want to bother at all about verisimilitude.

[Synner]

Hell, I still don't get how the stupid slot system works,

Maybe you could be more specific about what your problem is?

The slot system is intended to be simple and intuitive (and work along the lines of Capacity in cyberlimbs). Each vehicle has a number of slots equal to 4 or its Body Rating (whichever is higher). Each modification in Arsenal lists a cost in slots that it takes up (ie. A vehicle with Body 6 allows for 6 slots worth of modifications.)

The total number of modification slots can even be exceeded, if the gamemaster allows, through overmodification (though such excessive modifications have an increased nuyen cost, instalation Threshold, demand the next better level of tools than usually required for that modification, and come with additional drawbacks at the gamemaster's discretion).

We are aware of some complaints about specific lack of limitations/nuyen pricing/slot costs for a handful of the modifications offered in Arsenal (some of which we will be taking under consideration when the errata comes out), but I think the modification/slot system itself is simple, functional, easy to implement, and works. If you have constructive criticism to offer please feel free to do so.

For my money, there aren't enough examples of the commonly useful/used vehicle types. My previous edition Rigger books are in storage so I can't really go to them for objective comparisons, but the *feeling* I have is that there were a lot more vehicles that runners might actually encounter. More than one cruiser bike, more than one trailbike, more limo's, more SUVs...

We specifically chose to present a wide variety of vehicles and instead of redundantly introducing 3 limos or SUVs with a minimal variation in stat lines we chose to list similar models under each entry. Many other "redundant" vehicles were worked up and we may release them in the future in some form or another but for Arsenal we chose to offer diversity in basic vehicle types over presenting multiple variants of the same vehicle type. This is not to say we didn't offer a few "repeats" and that covered everything we wanted to cover—various military grade vehicles are a notable absence—but we have plans for those too.

[HentaiZonga]

I'm glad for the new system, because it lets me make this:


Base Vehicle: Hyundai Shin-Hyung (Base Cost: 17,000)
Slots: 14
Body 10 / Armor 5
Acceleration 10/25 / Speed 80
Handling +2 / Sensor 1

Mecha #1: - 63,750 Nuyen
Body 10 / Armor 5
Acceleration 15/35 / Speed 95
Handling +3 / Sensor 1
Mod Slots Cost
Walker 2 5,000
Mechanical Arm 2 4,000
Mechanical Arm 2 4,000
Pimped Ride (2) 1 5,000
Ram Plate 1 2,500
Engine Customization
Acceleration (15/35) 2 13,750
Speed (95) 2 9,500
Nitrous Injection 1 2,500

Mecha #2: - 60,000 Nuyen
Body 10 / Armor 5
Acceleration 10/25 / Speed 80
Handling +3 / Sensor 1
Mod Slots Cost
Walker 2 5,000
Mechanical Arm 2 4,000
Mechanical Arm 2 4,000
Pimped Ride (2) 1 5,000
Body Stabilizer (3) 3 9,000
Gyro Link 1 8,000
Gyro Link 1 8,000


Mecha #3: - 60,000 Nuyen
Body 10 / Armor 20 (Passenger compartment: 50 + 11)
Acceleration 10/25 / Speed 80
Handling +3 / Sensor 1
Mod Slots Cost
Walker 2 5,000
Mechanical Arm 2 4,000
Mechanical Arm 2 4,000
Pimped Ride (2) 1 5,000
Armor (20) 1 4,000
Passenger Protection (6) 2 12,000
Personal Armor (10) 2 5,000
Enhanced Rigger Cocoon 2 4,000

[DocTaotsu]

I'm glad that there isn't a Rigger 4 because I really have only played with a handful of people who actually cared enough about Rigger 3 to use even a fraction of the rules contained therein.

Or they made flying monkeys that pissed acid.

I also didn't like how it made rigger combat this fantastically long series of events that took place in some alternate universe, presumably where all the deckers hung out and sucked the life out of my early SR experiences. You shouldn't need 3 GM's to run a game damnit!

No, Arsenal will be sufficient. The slot system lets my players make some fairly reasonable and far reaching modifications to their vehicles. Nothing fell off when I dropped the book into our game and as long as it keeps running I'll be perfectly fine.

But I will grudgingly agree that leaving off capacity, let alone seating is annoying. I can see why they left it off of the core book (Jackrabbit seats 4, 5 if you have a dwarf in the party). But when you start rolling around in cargo jets and APC's... it'd be nice to have at least a ballpark figure without having to resort to wikipedia.

An errata would be sufficient to fix that though.

[Larme]

Slots are not very realistic, and they're pretty arbitrary. Chameleon paint takes 2 whole slots while adding a whole extra fuel tank to the vehicle takes 1? And some things seem like they should cost 0 slots. Like enhanced image screens isn't exactly crowding out the mechanical mods you want to add, and it's not useful enough that it's actually worth a slot. I'm also annoyed that a concealed flexible turret is not available at chargen. That means that riggers can't start with highly discrete yet armed vehicles, unless they want a fixed mount. Which there are no rules for, btw. I know it would be good to have the mount be flexible, but what's the system disadvantage to fixed? Can a rigger just aim his fixed mount by moving at "walking" speed? Does he need a "take aim" to aim it if the target moves? I think that's a much bigger oversight than doors.

I still can't get past the whole bitching about exit and entry point thing though. Do you need a book to tell you that sports cars have two doors and vans have 4 door and a back door? Some things are a little confusing, like the Banshee, because the description of the banshee is so short you don't know if it works like a fighter jet or more like a transport helicopter. But the Banshee is the GM's "fuck you, die" option anyway, so it's probably not going to matter.

Despite its shortcomings, however, the slots system beats the SHIT out of rigger 3. With Rigger 3, it took HOURS to make a single vehicle. You had to calculate both load and cargo (no idea why it needed two stats to keep track of what you can put into a car) and deal with a lot of really tiny details that made it more pain than fun to make a Rigger. A few people might have enjoyed it. But because Rigger 3 was so awful, it made Riggers into the least popular archetype after deckers.

I also think the slots system is more balanced. Rigger 3 had so many options the devs could not have playtested them all. The default van created by Rigger 3 was immune to bullets, had a turret, was impossible to trace, was fast, and could still carry the whole team. Of course if you wanted to create a sports car, you could forget about it. They were so obsessed with making a realistic vehicle that they gave sports cars pathetic load and cargo ratings, so a sports car would be worthless as a combat vehicle. And vans had such ridiculous load and cargo that, despite being pretty unimpressive per their base stats, they became 100k+ monsters of invincible combat death that would be able to immediately ruin the enemy's plans. Unless of course the enemy had AV ammo, in which case they were instantly destroyed and were much too expensive to even think about repairing.

Slots strike a balance. A sports car can have a turret and some useful mods. It won't be the toughest vehicle, but it's definitely viable. And vans are good, but you can't fit everything and the kitchen sink into them. It isn't like a default "duhhh... bulldog" when you're selecting what vehicle you want to rig anymore. Honestly, SR3 seemed focused around making everyone really bland, wearing black trenchcoats and driving around in modified GMC bulldogs. One thing that the SR4 system and arsenal do is lessen the differences between options. By having only 1-2 DV difference between guns, by having a limited number of slots no matter what vehicle you choose, SR4 lets you take the options that you like without smacking you in the face with a single, painfully obvious best option. People can feel free to stylize their characters without really sacrificing their usefulness.

[DocTaotsu]

Exactly... people actually open both Arsenal and the BBB when we play. No one makes an immediate beeline to Arsenal because the BBB only has lame n3wbie gear you get by doing the starting quests. People get some options, some customization, I don't get 4 page spreadsheets detailing the basic outline of their vehicle and it's 3 basic mods. Nor do I have to scribble "Show your work" at the top because I have no idea if it's legal or not.

[kigmatzomat]

I just wish they'd have been consistent with the slots and made tires a "slot" item rather than per-tire. Do dobermans have tires? What about the vehicles with no artwork? Is the tire for a Doble Revolution really the same price as a tire for a Horseman?

Other problems with arsenal:

-should have described what configuration the BBB weapon mount is. Concealed fixed w/remote, Flexible obvious, what?

-Who's idea was it to give the Morgan a "fixed" weapon mount with no remote trigger? The "gunner" can't aim the gun except by yelling directions to the driver, who can't pull the trigger.

-lack of onroad/offroad handling for vehicles that have an optimized suspension. Is a Growler +1 onroad, +3 offroad, +0/+2 or something else?

-lack of any cargo/passenger info. No need to go the whole CF route but 1m^3/person is a decent guideline.

-vague data on solar charging. Suncell operation is clear but it goes on to say all vehicles have basic solar capacity. What's that mean? Do regular vehicles get 1 hour of charge per day of sunlight? per week?

-Why wasn't the stormcloud given the Suncell as a standard option since it's stated to be a solar blimp?

-What is an "atmosphere sensor" in relation to the new sensors listed?

[Larme]

I'm actually a little confused by the above "mecha." Can you turn a 4-door car into an anthroform walker? And if so, why does it cost the same number of slots as chameleon paint? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

[CanRay]

BAH! Wimpy four-door.

'Should go with a nice MUSCLE CAR as the head! Megas XLR!!!

[Fix-it]

i found the weapon mount rules in R3 to be easier to understand. or maybe I just need to re-read the arsenal ones a few more times.

[Heath Robinson]

I'm actually a little confused by the above "mecha." Can you turn a 4-door car into an anthroform walker? And if so, why does it cost the same number of slots as chameleon paint? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

As I understand it, the "walker" system actually means that the wheels are mounted on "legs" that are controllable to the extent that it allows the vehicle to better handle larger obstacles, rather than becoming a biped or quadruped. The slots represent the extensiveness of the mod, chameleon coating requires that you cover the car and add a bunch of control electronics beneath the coating and then tie them into a computer that draws power from the normal car systems.

[Sombranox]

Arsenal 146:
The transport mechanism of the drone or vehicle is completely
swapped out for one that turns it into a walker, or at least
provides it with multiple independent wheels or tracks so that
it can handle most obstacles with the same ease as a human.
For smaller drones, the walker option can feature multiple legs, with
a configuration similar to that of an insect or spider, while larger
drones or vehicles are typically made bipedal, turning them into
the classical representation of robots.

So yeah, mechas in some cases, though it implies that a multi-wheel system works as well.

Though the thing I'm confused about with the actual mecha sorts a bit is whether switching them to walker mode makes them Pilot Anthroform or if they stay as ground craft.

Since it describes them as still being wheeled like Heath mentioned above, I'd still call them ground craft, but the ambiguity was kind of annoying.

That aside, I overall like the slot system, though like Larme said, some of it seems horribly arbitrary like chameleon coating taking up more slots than a number of other things that seemed like they'd use a lot more space.

[fool]

no rigger 4 it'll mean a new edition, and I can't afford it.

[Larme]

Though the thing I'm confused about with the actual mecha sorts a bit is whether switching them to walker mode makes them Pilot Anthroform or if they stay as ground craft.

I think anything that uses legs is anthroform. Obviously anthroforms are also going to be ground craft as well, but the pilot(ground) skill does not cover them.

But I always come back to the central question behind mechas in Shadowrun: ARE YOU STUPID? DO YOU WANT TO GO TO JAIL? IF NOT, DON'T GO STOMPING AROUND IN A BIG WALKER TANK!

[DocTaotsu]

Go to jail? How about getting swarmed by yellowjackets loaded with APDS and AV rockets (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HentaiZonga]

ARE YOU STUPID? DO YOU WANT TO GO TO JAIL? IF NOT, DON'T GO STOMPING AROUND IN A BIG WALKER TANK!

Awwwww.....