Spell question: Turn to Goo--does the caster know what Force to use? Options

[Ranger]

The Turn to Goo spell requires a Force equal to or greater than the target's Body rating. Does the caster know what Force to use, or does he have to take his best guess?

This question applies to any spell that requires the Force to equal or exceed some stat of the target.

[Stahlseele]

usualy, the spells are cast at magic attribute force . . and usually, they are cast at highest safe force too . . and if you see something LARGER you generally tend to over-cast, just to be sure *g*

[Ranger]

usualy, the spells are cast at magic attribute force . . and usually, they are cast at highest safe force too . . and if you see something LARGER you generally tend to over-cast, just to be sure *g*

So, you are indirectly saying that the caster has no idea the exact amount of Force to use.

That's fine; I just wasn't sure if the caster was supposed to know.

[Stahlseele]

nope, the caster has usually no way of knowing these things . . maybe one could argue with that astral-perception table that was around at least in SR3 . . it let the magician see illness, essence loss and implants and such things, so maybe he could see the attributes as well . . but "realistically"(gods, i hate saying this) there are no attributes in the world of SR, the mage can not guess:"the orc has a strength of 6, the Dwarf has a Strength of 5, the Troll has a Strength of 10" . . he can only guess:"the dwarf is stronger than me, a little bit . . the ork is a little bit stronger than the dwarf . . and the Troll is stronger than all of us together"

[Ranger]

nope, the caster has usually no way of knowing these things . . maybe one could argue with that astral-perception table that was around at least in SR3 . . it let the magician see illness, essence loss and implants and such things, so maybe he could see the attributes as well . . but "realistically"(gods, i hate saying this) there are no attributes in the world of SR, the mage can not guess:"the orc has a strength of 6, the Dwarf has a Strength of 5, the Troll has a Strength of 10" . . he can only guess:"the dwarf is stronger than me, a little bit . . the ork is a little bit stronger than the dwarf . . and the Troll is stronger than all of us together"

SR4 (which is what I'm playing) has the same table. If you get 4 or more hits, you can tell the exact Essence, Magic, and Force ratings of the subject. But, you can't see other attribute ratings.

Since I'm the GM considering giving this spell to an NPC, the difficult thing for me is determining how much Force to use for the spell against other NPCs (or even PCs), since I as the GM know what the stats are, but the caster doesn't know. I'll just have to come up with a generic starting point, and if the caster fails, he'll have to try again with more Force, until he succeeds or suffers too much drain.

[Nightwalker450]

Throw it based on the target:
Human or Elf, throw it at Force 3 (4 if you're a strong mage)
Dwarf or Orc, throw it at Force 8 (Maybe just do a different spell at this point)
Troll, I'd recommend throwing a different spell completely.

[Shiloh]

SR4 (which is what I'm playing) has the same table. If you get 4 or more hits, you can tell the exact Essence, Magic, and Force ratings of the subject. But, you can't see other attribute ratings.

Since I'm the GM considering giving this spell to an NPC, the difficult thing for me is determining how much Force to use for the spell against other NPCs (or even PCs), since I as the GM know what the stats are, but the caster doesn't know. I'll just have to come up with a generic starting point, and if the caster fails, he'll have to try again with more Force, until he succeeds or suffers too much drain.

I'd suggest "Magic" as the starting Force...

[Speed Wraith]

I would rule that if cast on-the-fly, without any prior knowledge/assensing of the subject, then the caster is clueless. If they wanted to target someone specificallly and have watched/assensed or otherwise 'tested' the target then I would give the caster some chance of figuring out an approximate minimum force. I don't see anyone being able to figure out specifically what force they'd need to use, but if someone wants to do the work then they should be able to get a rough idea.

[Ranger]

Throw it based on the target:
Human or Elf, throw it at Force 3 (4 if you're a strong mage)
Dwarf or Orc, throw it at Force 8 (Maybe just do a different spell at this point)
Troll, I'd recommend throwing a different spell completely.

Good recommendations. If you're going to throw Force 4 against a human or elf, might as well make it 5 since it's the same drain.

I assume that Body from cyberlimbs doesn't have any effect on this spell, since the spell doesn't affect cyberware.

Just imagine if the target has a cyberskull or cybertorso and you use this spell on him, then stop sustaining the spell on your next action. Talk about a mess.

[Method]

Non-metagame answer: the *character* probably doesn't think in terms of "force" and certainly doesn't try to guess the target's "body". Those are metagame constructs to which the character is oblivious. The character would think "Damn thats a big ork, I better put a little extra juice into this spell if I want it work..."

Metagame answer: I would rule that the *player* does not get to know the body of the target unless he spends a simple action to observe in detail. Then he will get a rough idea based on the successes of his perception test. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

Frank Trollman pointed out that there's only two efficient levels to cast magic at: Force = Magic, and Force = double magic. There needs to be a good reason to throw any spell at any other Force.

So, presuming a Magic of 5, throw it at 5 if you're facing a human or elf, and throw it at 10 if you're facing an ork or dwarf. That should be sufficient to work most of the time, no matter what their Body is.

[FrankTrollman]

Well, Drain mounts up, so there's a number of reasons that you'd shift to a lower Force Rating. Since things round in your favor, odd Forces are superior. Casting at Force 3, 5, 7, and 9 all have reasons. You're never going to cast at Force 12 even if you can do so.

Basically the best bet is to cast it at the lowest odd number that you are reasonably positive is above the target's Body. The All or Double All paradigm mostly comes in for conjuring, since there are no Drain breakpoints.

-Frank

[Stahlseele]

Frank Trollman pointed out that there's only two efficient levels to cast magic at: Force = Magic, and Force = double magic. There needs to be a good reason to throw any spell at any other Force.

So, presuming a Magic of 5, throw it at 5 if you're facing a human or elf, and throw it at 10 if you're facing an ork or dwarf. That should be sufficient to work most of the time, no matter what their Body is.

what about trolls?

[cryptoknight]

what about trolls?

Initiate a few times first... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stahlseele]

*snickers* first do that, then chose other spell, more like it ^^

[Sponge]

Frank Trollman pointed out that there's only two efficient levels to cast magic at: Force = Magic, and Force = double magic. There needs to be a good reason to throw any spell at any other Force.

Such leaving as little astral trace as possible on a run?

[Cain]

what about trolls?

Pick another spell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
Seriously, against a troll, any body-resisted spell is a bad idea. Choose something else, like Manabolt.

Such leaving as little astral trace as possible on a run?

If you need to cast Turn to Goo on a run, odds are that you're already hosed. Astral signature is the least of your worries. If you've got the time, and you really need another spell to work, you may as well throw it at max force and then spend a bit erasing the signature. I don't have my book handy, but isn't a matter of combat rounds to erase a signature? A few seconds is all it takes. And if you're worried about being noticed from the astral, then casting any spell, regardless of force, is going to attract unwanted attention. See above: you're already hosed, so why worry?