Revising the Martial Arts Options

[nathanross]

So I have been dicking around with martial arts for a while, and I realized that I didnt really like the way maneuvers are tied to the arts. As things are, you can learn any two maneuvers per level of quality you have taken. This means that someone taking boxing can get Iaijutsu and Kick Attack, which doesnt really seem right. I decided to go back to my SR3 roots and tinker around with the martial arts and pick 8 maneuvers for each martial art.

First, I should note that I have added some maneuvers and removed others:

• Clinch is once again Close Combat
• Focus Strength has been added (Complex Action, +2 Strength on next action or +1DV)
• Kip-up added (Free Action, Get up from prone with Agility + Unarmed Combat (2) test)
• Watchful Guard may be removed in favor of Whirling (Enemies do not receive Friends in Melee bonus and character is -4DP to attack/or Full Defense)
• Iaijutsu has been removed as a maneuver and will be a quality of Kendo (when I get around to making it).
• Kick Attack is no longer a maneuver, as anyone can kick. +1 Reach, -1 Defense. Option for any attack.
• Modified Riposte to Counter (A character on Full Defense can make a standard melee attack at -2DP when attacked in melee, this is not an interrupt action)
• Throw is much like Counter in that it is not an interrupt action.

Now for the Martial Arts:

Aikido (Unarmed and Reach 0-1 weapons)
Disarm
Disorient
Evasion
Focus Will
Herding
Sweep
Throw
Whirling/Watchful Guard

Arnis de Mano (Unarmed and Reach 0-1 Weapons)
Break Weapon
Close Combat
Disarm
Kip-up
Multi Strike
Set-up
Two-weapon Style
Off-hand Training

Boxing (Unarmed only, Cannot use Kick Attack)
Close Combat
Counter
Disorient
Evasion
Finishing Blow
Herding
Set-up
Vicious Blow

Capoeira (Unarmed and Reach 0 weapons)
Disorient
Evasion
Ground Fighting
Herding
Kip-up
Multi Strike
Sweep
Vicious Blow

Carromeleg (Unarmed only)
Counter
Evasion
Focus Will
Ground Fighting
Kip-up
Multi Strike
Sweep
Whirling/Watchful Guard

Firefight (Firearms only)
Close Combat
Evasion
Herding
Multi Strike
Set-up
Off-hand Training

Karate (Unarmed and Reach 0-1 weapons)
Blind Fighting
Break Weapon
Finishing Blow
Focus Strength
Focus Will
Full Offense
Sweep
Vicious Blow

Kenjitsu (Reach 0-2 weapons)
Break Weapon
Finishing Blow
Focus Strength
Off-hand Training
Herding
Multi Strike
Set-up
Off-hand Training
Two-weapon Style

Kiai (Shouting?)

Krav Maga (Unarmed, Reach 0-1 weapons, and Firearms)
Break Weapon
Close Combat
Counter
Disarm
Finishing Blow
Vicious Blow
Whirling/Watchful Guard
Off-hand Training

Kung Fu (Unarmed and Reach 0,1,2 weapons)
Blind Fighting
Focus Strength
Full Offense
Multi Strike
Kip-up
Whirling/Watchful Guard
Off-hand Training
Two-weapons Style

Muay Thai (Unarmed only)
Close Combat
Counter
Evasion
Finishing Blow
Herding
Kip-up
Sweep
Vicious Blow

Ninjutsu (Unarmed and Reach 0,1,2 weapons)
Blind Fighting
Break Weapon
Disorient
Evasion
Kip-up
Sweep
Off-hand Training
Two-weapon Style

Pentjak-Silat (Unarmed and Reach 0-1 Weapons)
Blind Fighting
Evasion
Focus Will
Ground Fighting
Multi Strike
Sweep
Vicious Blow
Whirling/Watchful Guard

Sangre y Acero (Unarmed and Reach 0 Weapons)
Break Weapon
Close Combat
Counter
Full Offense
Ground Fighting
Kip-up
Sweep
Vicious Blow

Sumo (Unarmed only, Cannot use Kick Attack)
Close Combat
Counter
Finishing Blow
Focus Strength
Herding
Set-up
Sweep
Throw

Tae Kwon Do (Unarmed only)
Disarm
Evasion
Focus Strength
Full Offense
Kip-up
Multi Strike
Sweep
Vicious Blow

Tai Chi Ch'uan (Unarmed and Reach 0-1 weapons)
Blind Fighting
Disarm
Evasion
Focus Strength
Focus Will
Herding
Throw
Whirling/Watchful Guard

Wildcat (Unarmed only)
Blind Fighting
Break Weapon
Close Combat
Full Offense
Ground Fighting
Multi Strike
Sweep
Vicious Blow

Wrestling (Unarmed only)
Close Combat
Full Offense
Focus Strength
Ground Fighting
Herding
Set-up
Sweep
Throw

I need some help with:

• Kiai (Unarmed and Voice attack????), aside from hurting spirits, what is the martial aspect? anyone?
• Any Martial Arts that they missed and dont really fit into one of the above categories?

[Muspellsheimr]

• Focus Strength has been added (Complex Action, +2 Strength on next action or +1DV)

To powerful. +2 dice pool. No strength attribute or damage increase.

• Modified Riposte to Counter (A character on Full Defense can make a standard melee attack at -2DP when attacked in melee, this is not an interrupt action)

Leave Riposte as RAW.

Aikido (Unarmed only)
Disarm
Disorient
Sweep
Throw
Whirling/Watchful Guard
Evasion
Focus Will
Herding

Looks good.

Arnis de Mano (Unarmed and Reach 0-1 Weapons)
Break Weapon
Sweep
Throw
Off-Hand Training
Set up
Close Combat
Kip-up
Multi Strike

Disarm is an absolute must. Two-Weapon Style is strongly recommended. I would suggest dropping Sweep & Throw for them.

Tai Chi Ch'uan (Unarmed only)
Focus Strength
Focus Will
Sweep
Throw
Whirling/Watchful Guard
Evasion
Blind Fighting
Disarm

Sweep does not belong in there, but I cannot think of an appropriate alternative. If you have not already, create a new martial art for Tai Chi Chuan / Yi Chuan that provides non-combat health bonus', such as increased pathogen resistance. It is *not* anywhere near the Kiai the book has it listed under. Also, Swords & Unarmed.

Didn't really bother looking at the rest, as these are the ones I actually train in (RL & in game)

[nathanross]

To powerful. +2 dice pool. No strength attribute or damage increase. Leave Riposte as RAW.

Disarm is an absolute must. Two-Weapon Style is strongly recommended. I would suggest dropping Sweep & Throw for them.

I dont like Riposte as RAW. It was standard in SR3, I dont see why a mundane/uncybered should be unable to counter. That just seems foolish. I also think that +1DV per Complex Action spent is hardly unbalanced. In fact it kind of sucks still.

Thanks for the input on Aikido, Arnis de Mano, and Tai Chi Ch'uan. I will make sure to make at least one of the qualities for Tai Chi health/healing related. That is some nice fluff.

[Muspellsheimr]

There is nothing by RAW preventing a single-pass person from taking an interrupt action. Merely endless debates on the forums about how interrupts should be limited. I would advise a single borrowed action at a time, or half reaction, round up (or down, your choice) allowed at a time. Additional passes does not increase your ability to interrupt, only your ability to recover afterwards.

[Glyph]

What's the point of the whirling maneuver? They don't get (up to) +4 against you, but you get -4? In the opposed dice contest that is melee combat, that's six of one, half a dozen of another.

Also, while I agree that some maneuvers don't go well with some martial arts styles, it's not worth re-doing everything like this, since someone who wants a certain set of maneuvers can always get 5 points of this martial art, 10 points of another, and so on. And that's not even unrealistic, since with UFC and the like, you are seeing much more blending of various styles.

[ElFenrir]

There is nothing by RAW preventing a single-pass person from taking an interrupt action. Merely endless debates on the forums about how interrupts should be limited. I would advise a single borrowed action at a time, or half reaction, round up (or down, your choice) allowed at a time. Additional passes does not increase your ability to interrupt, only your ability to recover afterwards.

You know? Half reaction, round up actually doesn't sound too bad.

See, I always say, I miss the old way, i admit. Overall; these days, Im an SR4 fan; don't get me wrong, but as with any system, it's natural that one sometimes misses things in other editions. If someone is really, really good(the quintessential Skill 7 old master, for example) they should be able to take out a bunch of Rating 1 or 2 skilled mooks, IMO.

BUT i can see where the old system got silly. Melee fight scenes turned into a Jackie Chan/Crazy 88s fest. Sure, it was fun, but it got to the point that unless you had massive groups of highly skilled(and smart/willful mooks, remembered, the combat pool was determined 2/3 mentally), anyone with even a good skill and combat pool would just annihilate everything.

Now, i recall something in an old SR3 game i played. It was...wow, 7 or so years ago now, so I could be remembering things wrong. But we were playing with a rule(it MIGHT have been in a supplement), that allowed you multiple melee attacks up to your Skill Rating-however, each attack after the first netted a +2 to the TN. So while you were hitting against TN4(if you were unwounded), but wanted to hit again, you did it again(combat pool could be used, but remember when it refreshed, so you didnt want to go overboard), and hit at a TN6. Want another? TN8. And you could do this as many times as your skill rating. (It might have been a friends houserule or an old rule or something, but i recall doing this). Honestly, after TN6 it became pretty hairy.

Im wondering how that would work in SR4.

Allow someone to make multiple melee attacks up to their base skill level(not DP level, skill level), but each subsequent attack causes a -2 DP. So someone with a 4 Unarmed and 4 Agility could attack once(8DP), twice(6DP), 3rd time(4 DP). IMO, it allows those high-skill people to still do some neat stuff like with the old Unlimited Defense method-but it doesn't last forever. Granted, this might have a bit more of a problem in SR4 due to the lack of combat pool now-then you had to sorta balance it by adding it/not adding it, but someone with, say, a DP of 15+ might end up still pretty insane(15/13/11/9/7...that's 5 shots before it starts getting a little thin. Of course, if their base skill is 5, then they are out of attacks anyway.) You could have it so that as soon as they miss; that sorta ''ends the combo'' so to speak. (Any hit can miss, but chances are the misses won't start cropping up until the 7 DP mark or less.)

It's rough. I want to keep it balanced, but I think super-skilled people should be scary and be able to do some scary stuff.

Perhaps make it so each extra attack they take also knocks 1 off their defense DP until their next turn. It might be able to balance it out more. So someone with Skill 4 and Agility 6 can roll 10/8/6 dice, for 3 attacks, but their at -2 to defend until their next pass(the first attack won't count).. Or they can try only 2 attacks and be at -1. Or even take all 4 and be at -3. Since most folks(unless they are a twinked Riposte master), don't have oodles and oodles of dice for defense, it could be a balancing factor.

I dunno. But this Reaction/2 round up sounds like it could work. Someone with a 6 could borrow up to 3 turns, which is pretty sweet, and usually enough to get done what is needed. Makes Reaction a rather desirable stat, though. I wonder how desirable.

And Nathan: i actually like your Counter. Again, sorta gives me that old-time feeling, but they do take a DP modifier for it at least, to lessen it a tiny bit. I'd give it a try in a oneshot or a few mock battles to see how it works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nathanross]

Fen, I totally know what you mean about SR3 Melee. I just dislike Riposte as being a borrow-ahead kind of move. Im not sure if I mentioned it, but I wanted the DP to decrease by -1 per defense during the pass. This would make a hard limit of number of melee that could be blocked.

What's the point of the whirling maneuver? They don't get (up to) +4 against you, but you get -4? In the opposed dice contest that is melee combat, that's six of one, half a dozen of another.

Also, while I agree that some maneuvers don't go well with some martial arts styles, it's not worth re-doing everything like this, since someone who wants a certain set of maneuvers can always get 5 points of this martial art, 10 points of another, and so on. And that's not even unrealistic, since with UFC and the like, you are seeing much more blending of various styles.

First, Whirling reduces their bonus to 0 when you are defending, but also reduces your DP to attack. It does not reduce your DP to defend. It may be a bit too much but I will have to try it out and see.

As for people buying multiple martial arts: that is exactly what I want. You should not just be able to focus on one to get all the goodies, you should have to try many. I like each one having certain strengths (and some weaknesses).

[ElFenrir]

Style blending is cool. I mean, if someone wants to take, say, 20 points of a martial art and get all the goodies, they can. If someone else would rather pick from 4 different martial arts for less goodies(DV bonus and Block bonuses only, example), why not. It's just other ways of learning them.

And having the die drop by 1 each time sounds like it could work. This way, someone with a high skill is still dangerous; but it's not an 'unlimited danger' like it was in SR3, which was the main problem with it. Add that to the -2 already and it seems like it could be a solid thing to add into combat.
One thing though; why is Counter only part of 3 martial arts? Now again, im no expert-someone who studies them will be much better here, but I can't get it out of my head that any martial artist will learn how to block and counterattack. Unless you cut out Counter as a manuver and make it available by everyone, with the -2DP, and -1 more per counter.

And as for Boxing ''Not Being Able to Use Kick Attack''...well, even a trained boxer, if necessary, can 'throw a kick', im sure If a regular old Unarmed Combat Level 2 joe decides to throw a kick; under your rules it's +1 Reach, -1 Defense, with it no longer a manuver anymore. A boxer, whose a trained fighter, doesn't necessarily have crippled legs-while they are fully arm-specialized Im sure a boxer can figure out how to kick someone if their hands are tied somehow. And even someone who has studied boxing, might well know a bit here and there of other styles-just not enough to ''technically'' buy the 5 BP in it.

[Glyph]

Watchful Guard may be removed in favor of Whirling (Enemies do not receive Friends in Melee bonus and character is -4DP to attack/or Full Defense.

I took that to mean that the character using whirling was penalized on attack and defense. So the way you're doing it, their attacks go down by (up to) 4 dice, and your attacks go down by 4 dice. Could be useful, I guess, for someone being attacked by four opponents with overall lower dice pools, since the skilled character can take the hit better.

Personally, I would limit "borrowed" actions to 1 action in the future. Sure, a martial arts master should be able to take down multiple opponents, but a martial arts master with wired reflexes should be able to take them down faster - IPs should mean something. The stereotypical martial arts master can still take out a gang of mooks - he just can't take all of them out in one round, which is fine by me. And the current rules let a mob of mooks at least use standard wolf pack tactics if they have some minimal tactical sense. Also good.

I really don't miss SR3 rules for multiple opponents. First, the penalties were so severe that a mob of squatters could swarm under the most brutally tweaked sammie. Then, they had whirling, which all but negated those penalties but opened up a new can of worms, namely the martial arts master seemingly getting faster the more he was attacked.

And the other problem with SR3 was someone with multiple IPs attacking a martial arts master just got beat up 3 times faster, and a martial arts master with multiple IPs was not really significantly better matched up against a martial arts master with normal reflexes.

[Lionhearted]

Krav Maga (Unarmed, Reach 0-1 weapons, and firearms to Rifle size), what are it's strengths in RL?

Krav maga mainly uses your body own reflexes and the laws of physics to your advantage, it was intended to be used as a close combat options of Israeli military.. both for unarmed combat versus unarmed or armed opponents (and yes intentional plural, you are tought to fight several assailants at once) aswell as armed close combat with rifles aswell as knifes, poles or whatever you got at hand, its a dirty style designed to incapicate, disarm or kill the assailant

"one of the most effective self defense disciplines in the world"

[nathanross]

One thing though; why is Counter only part of 3 martial arts? Now again, im no expert-someone who studies them will be much better here, but I can't get it out of my head that any martial artist will learn how to block and counterattack. Unless you cut out Counter as a maneuver and make it available by everyone, with the -2DP, and -1 more per counter.

And as for Boxing ''Not Being Able to Use Kick Attack''...well, even a trained boxer, if necessary, can 'throw a kick', im sure.

The reason for limiting the number of martial arts that have Counter is a balance and flavor issue. To the boxing traditions (Boxing, Muay Thai) close combat countering is much more prevalent than other martial arts. Carromeleg was added to those because I feel that they have changed the flavor of the martial art, and it seems to be something of a counter art like aikido, but instead of throwing, they attack. If you feel there are other martial arts that should have that maneuver, list them.

For boxing and kick attack. The boxer can make a kick attack, but not as a boxing attack. So if they kicked, they would not get +2DV or be able to use maneuvers with the kick. They would have to do it as a plain jane brawling kick attack.

I took that to mean that the character using whirling was penalized on attack and defense. So the way you're doing it, their attacks go down by (up to) 4 dice, and your attacks go down by 4 dice. Could be useful, I guess, for someone being attacked by four opponents with overall lower dice pools, since the skilled character can take the hit better.

I'm glad you dont think it is too bad. Actually, I like your method that the -DP to Attack is equal to the friends in melee bonus. So it could be anything from -1 to -4.

Krav maga mainly uses your body own reflexes and the laws of physics to your advantage, it was intended to be used as a close combat options of Israeli military.. both for unarmed combat versus unarmed or armed opponents (and yes intentional plural, you are tought to fight several assailants at once) aswell as armed close combat with rifles aswell as knifes, poles or whatever you got at hand, its a dirty style designed to incapicate, disarm or kill the assailant

So given that:

Break Weapon
Close Combat
Counter
Disarm
Finishing Blow
Off-hand training
Vicious Blow
Whirling

How does that look for Krav Maga?

[Kyoto Kid]

BUT i can see where the old system got silly. Melee fight scenes turned into a Jackie Chan/Crazy 88s fest. Sure, it was fun, but it got to the point that unless you had massive groups of highly skilled(and smart/willful mooks, remembered, the combat pool was determined 2/3 mentally), anyone with even a good skill and combat pool would just annihilate everything.

...awww that's what made the Short One in previous editions so bloody dangerous to attack even though she only had 2d6 initiative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Nathanross: I am very curious to see Kendo when it is written up. That would be the most appropriate MA style for the Short One.

[reepneep]

I have an issue with Aikido being unarmed only. Ive trained Aikido for a couple of years and we most certainly use weapons. Ones that are covered directly are Katana, Jo, and Tanto. Theres your blades and knives right there. The techniques can easily be adapted to any number of other weapons.

[Muspellsheimr]

I have an issue with Aikido being unarmed only. Ive trained Aikido for a couple of years and we most certainly use weapons. Ones that are covered directly are Katana, Jo, and Tanto. Theres your blades and knives right there. The techniques can easily be adapted to any number of other weapons.

This is something I had forgotten to comment on. It is not so much adapting the techniques to weapons, as the techniques being designed for weapons. The vast majority of Aikido/Jujitsu techniques are identical if you are unarmed or wielding a katana. Iaido is commonly taught alongside Aikido.

[reepneep]

Well, maybe not identical but they are very close. The only weapons that Aikido really won't work for are ones that actually require large amounts of force to strike with like a sledgehammer or the combat axe.

[nathanross]

So I modified Aikido to include Reach 0-1 weapons and Capoeira to include Reach 0 weapons as razors were common weapons in street fights.

[nathanross]

Added Firefight, Kenjitsu, and Krav Maga maneuvers to the main list. Alphabetized all of the maneuvers within each section (weapons only maneuvers like Off-hand and Two-weapon are always at the bottom of the list).

By tomorrow, I hope to have all the separate advantages written up.

Also, something Ive been thinking about. Are martial arts too expensive? Would it be too cheap to give the maneuvers for free with each level of the Martial Arts Quality? So when you get your first level of something you get that bonus and two maneuvers?

[reepneep]

Oh, there is one more thing: I would add ground fighting to the allowed maneuvers for Aikido as well. You spend alot of time learning to fight from your knees in that so I would say it qualifies. My toes hurt just thinking about it.

[Hatspur]

My father teaches Aikido in Minneapolis, and what little I've learned from him is that while weapons are used in Aikido, the majority of those weapon techniques are based around the defender removing the weapon from the offender's hands (Jiujitsu is shoving the weapon up every orifice you can find). It uses clinch techniques against people wielding katana like weapons and principles that come down to "Wait till this idiot misses, close in so he can't use the sword and break something important."

Having fenced for 6 years nationally myself I think the riposte rule is just silly. Unless you're using an incredibly fast weapon like a Rapier or a Katana you have no right to a free attack action even if it does take up your next attack action. Now, say the individuals had weapons that were evenly matched and you knew how to pressure him into a bad spot, you could easily effect an opposition onto him forcing to either retreat or sustain damage. That is how I treat riposte.

[nathanross]

Oh, there is one more thing: I would add ground fighting to the allowed maneuvers for Aikido as well. You spend alot of time learning to fight from your knees in that so I would say it qualifies. My toes hurt just thinking about it.

What maneuver would you give up in exchange?

[Earlydawn]

Having fenced for 6 years nationally myself I think the riposte rule is just silly. Unless you're using an incredibly fast weapon like a Rapier or a Katana you have no right to a free attack action even if it does take up your next attack action. Now, say the individuals had weapons that were evenly matched and you knew how to pressure him into a bad spot, you could easily effect an opposition onto him forcing to either retreat or sustain damage. That is how I treat riposte.

Ghasp! A fellow fencer? What weapon are you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Fortune]

What maneuver would you give up in exchange?

Disorient?

[reepneep]

That would be my choice. I have trouble understanding what purpose it even serves when the system already has feint.

[Hatspur]

Ghasp! A fellow fencer? What weapon are you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

Saber

[WearzManySkins]

As one who trained for 5+ years in Wu shu and 4+ years in Tai Chi, I will refrain from mentioning the lack features the current MA rules have but I also agree my version would be vastly more detailed and basically unplayable for a RPG. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS