Throwing soft things, Baby through a car redux. Options

[HentaiZonga]

Ah, but you're all ignoring the one vitally important question:

How much does a bandolier of babies cost?

Also: When not using them as throwing-weapons, what are the stats for baby-chuks?

[toturi]

Consider the softest material you can find. Cotton is soft, water deforms readily, but can a solid object or a liquid be softer than air? Then consider again the blast wave of an explosion, isn't the material hitting you just air? All you need to do is make the object transfer its kinetic energy to its target in a very small duration of time like in 1 microsecond and it does not matter how hard or soft the material it is composed of really is. Harder/less elastic objects tend to be able to tranfer that energy more efficiently in a very short period of time, so it is easier to deal damage with hard substances.

[Larme]

I see where your going Larme, but a baby would hurt a lot more then a pen if it was thrown at you with all of someone's might. Babies have bone and.... stuff.... and other stuff... in them. Now if you threw a baby at a steel grate the amount of body and armor that the wall would have would actually end up just soaking the power throw anyways. A playing card can cut threw carrots and human skin. If you brained someone with a baby flying at insane speeds whats not to say that it couldn't actually kill you if moving fast enough. I mean that is like 6 1/2 - 12 pounds of baby flying at you and if hit on the head it might be able to crack your skull.

Well, if we're going with RAW, babies are improvised throwing weapons that do BOD(S) damage. So 1S. They're not ordinary objects being turned into weapons, they're improvised weapons with a pre-set damage code. I think that's actually a pretty good way for the system to handle them as weapons. No matter how strong you are, they go splat pretty easily. With missile mastery and 6 levels of power throw, they could still kill someone, but it would be virtually impossible to throw one through hardened armor. Though I don't think they're a well balanced projectile, I would definitely slap on a -3 improvised weapon penalty to them, too.

oh yeah..... and MAGIC. A magic 1 mage can still summon spirits. A 1 PP adept ability can allow you to do stuff like run on a nearly broken tree branch, or kill someone with a coin, or an ice cube. I mean when you think about how movement works and all of that I mean why bother? Why not just shrug, and give up. Its magic.

The End.

I don't think that point makes any sense. Are you telling me that it's magic, therefore it can do anything? This is not a system like Mage the Ascension where magic really is unlimited. Magic is very limited in Shadowrun. There are certain things it can never do, like teleportation, time travel, enchanted projectiles... And you're comparing the ability to run along a fragile tree branch, which is little more than a very mild form of levitation, to the ability to bust open someone's head with a handful of pudding? I see a big difference there. One part of it is balance. 1 power point is plenty, but it must have limits or it's broken. "It's magic" is not an excuse for breaking the game, is it? But the more important difference is coolness. I think it's totally cool to throw credsticks and hairpins like bullets and kill people. But when it comes to throwing handfuls of mud or a soy hotdog at someone, that leaves the realm of Shadowrun and enters cartoony, silly world. Which is not a world I'll ever want to play an RPG in.

[Daier Mune]

...or kill someone with a coin, or an ice cube.

huh. thats one of the best ideas for a throwing mystic adept i've heard. ice based elemental manipulation in order to conjure/shape icicles and throw them at people. when the ice melts, there no trace of a murder weapon.

[HentaiZonga]

... still no stats for baby-chuks, I see.

[masterofm]

If you throw a pen into someones eye and into their brain it could kill them.

Well I was saying that if you use a live baby then their body applies so you could only do 1S damage, but if you killed it then it would be an inanimate object. I mean what kind of body does a pen or a hairpin have? Should it only do its object rating worth of P? If you hurl a computer at someone w/ power throw would it do full damage or only up to it's damage potential.

My whole point on magic in this game is that nothing is truly explained. There is a point at which you just have to shrug your shoulders and accept the fact that magic is just magic. How can he summon spirits? Answer: Magic. How can he pull fire from nowhere? Answer: Magic. Does it go onto say exactly how this happens in the exact minute detail that allows people to make sense of it or does the whole thing just boil down to the fact that you have to take it for what it is. Magic.

I think it's fine if you want to say pudding cup or a handful of dust won't kill someone. Fine thats cool. The problem that you are bringing up is under the whole silly "it's up to whatever the GM says" rule. Where do you draw the line? Can you use a pen but not a #2 pencil for using power throw? What if that handful of mud had some rocks in it? Would a snowball work? A Comb? A button? If a snowball then why not a baby?

Where do the game Devs draw the line? If they said yes a handful of dust is now an improvised weapon used with power throw so it can do as much as the rules allows it to do. Yes then the Troll redlining can do 10-15P with that plastic straw in his drinking cup, or the miniature umbrella (really his choice.) The very next thing that would make sense is to make a house rule, so it doesn't screw up the feel of your game. In the shotgun theme you made a good point on how no gun is actually specified to take different types of ammo. They don't say no, but they don't say yes. At that point you say ok... then I guess everything within reason. *edit* Although examples are given there is no point at which they say that you can't actually wing someone with a snowball packed with ice and have it be deadly. *edit* People already have a hard enough time wrapping their head around many of the magic spells and what different effects they can do, and why, and yadda yadda yadda. This is by no means saying that you don't make a valid point, but when much of the magic system already needs some fine tuning, and the matrix can of worms.... Well to me there are just some things I don't want to touch, because of the ooky.

In Closing. MAGIC (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Heck, a can of ravioli can destroy a heavily armored space cruiser if it has enough velocity.


-karma

[Fortune]

... still no stats for baby-chuks, I see.

As Larme said, according to canon a baby would have a [BOD]S DV. So more than likely 1S for a human. I'd also give them a Reach of 1. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[masterofm]

Ah but if they are dead they are inanimate objects and therefore have no body. But yeah 1-2S tops. Also I would have the rule that when using baby-chucks for the first attack everyone in a 5m radius suffers a -1 or -2 to all actions (convert their hearing bonus to minuses unless they have a sound dampener,) because of the screaming baby. After the first strike this penalty no longer applies.

[HentaiZonga]

As Larme said, according to canon a baby would have a [BOD]S DV. So more than likely 1S for a human. I'd also give them a Reach of 1. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ok, now what if I Dikote them?

[Fortune]

Ah but if they are dead they are inanimate objects and therefore have no body.

At no point in the rules do they distinguish between a living body and a dead one. The listing under Improvised Weapons is for 'Metahuman Body', which literally applies equally in both situations. If the body is indeed dead, then its 'former' Body Attribute is used to determine the base damage.

[Eyeless Blond]

Well, since dikoting makes the surface of the baby angry and hurt more, maybe (2-3)S?

[masterofm]

Ok babies only have 1 body so they only do 1 stun. Fine. If you jam a thick stick, or a pencil in someones eye you could potentially kill them. I just find that there are too many variables to say yes or no to. At the end of the day as I GM I would just say "Yes within reason." I feel like a baby could kill someone, but it would be a one use per baby deal and your ammo would

A - probably get you killed for the fact that you are walking around with dead babies attached to you
B - leave a huuuuge imprint of what your team is doing for whatever job you take on
C - traceable in every way and have the reputation of the team shot to sht. No one in their right mind would hire a baby throwing mad man.... unless they wanted them dead and sent them on a suicide run.

Anyways... this is Shadowrun so having tin cans, marbles, or other "hard items" would probably be pretty easy to pick up and use at a moments notice.I

mean personally I like the fact that a throwing adept would have just cans of beans attached to a string that he hucks at people who piss him off..... hum..... hobo throwing adept NPC..... now he would have to be crazy and say things like "The power of beans compels you!" before killing someone..... excuse me for a moment *goes off to make the crazy adept throwing hobo*

[Fortune]

I took Larme at his word, but when I just checked Arsenal it lists the DV of a Metahuman Body as being [Bod/2 +2] S. So minimum of 3S with a baby. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oh, you could definitely kill someone with a baby, even with a DV of 3S. It would just take around 8 net hits, give or take a few depending on other external factors.

The damage code is somewhat stupid though, as it doesn't rely on the attacker's Strength in any way, unlike all other melee combat (except monowhips and the like).

[HentaiZonga]

I took Larme at his word, but when I just checked Arsenal it lists the DV of a Metahuman Body as being [Bod/2 +2] S. So minimum of 3S with a baby. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oh, you could definitely kill someone with a baby, even with a DV of 3S. It would just take around 8 net hits, give or take a few depending on other external factors.

The damage code is somewhat stupid though, as it doesn't rely on the attacker's Strength in any way, unlike all other melee combat (except monowhips and the like).

How could it, with all those limbs flopping about and that spine twisting at all those annoying angles?

That's why you Dikote the baby.

[Fortune]

Before this goes any further in my slandering of Larme, I just rechecked the thread, and this is exactly what he said ...

Well, if we're going with RAW, babies are improvised throwing weapons that do BOD(S) damage. So 1S.

He was, in fact, absolutely correct, as the DV is different when throwing babies than it is when flailing them about.

In regards to the topic at hand though, I found this quote. Make of it what you will.

As in the case of improvised melee weapons (see p. 17), a metahuman can grab nearly any item within reach and throw it at his opponents. Depending upon the nature of the item thrown, the effects can vary from distracting at best to quite deadly (meatballs might be fun to throw, but a nightstand hurled by a strong ork is much more effective).

[masterofm]

Missile Mastery - The character’s knack for throwing weapons that he adds +1 to the Damage Value of any non-explosive thrown weapon he uses. Improvised thrown weapons (such as playing cards, glasses or
pens) have a Damage Value of (STR ÷ 2)P (round up). Is a baby not an improvised thrown weapon?

improvised melee weapons such at meatballs.... huh.... so why can't a meatball do STR divided by 2? Wouldn't it also be an Improvised thrown weapon if you threw it at someone?

[Fortune]

That DV is for those items that do not have a listing in the books, or those things that are not normally considered weapons but could conceivably do damage. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), 'Metahuman Body' does have an actual listing, both as an Improvised Melee Weapon with a DV of [Body/2 +2]S, and as an Improvised Throwing Weapon with a DV of [Body]S.

[masterofm]

Righto. So then rules as written you could throw a meatball for 13P, but when you huck a baby you do 2S (+1 DV value for thrown items.)

Excuse me for a second fortune as I need to step outside the room and have my brain explode. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Fortune]

Sounds about right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Fuchs]

A possible solution is, of course, to limit missile mastery to objects that do not include meatballs. Shouldn't be too hard to come to an understanding with your group's throwing adept.

[Stahlseele]

but it's a me! mario!

[Larme]

Righto. So then rules as written you could throw a meatball for 13P, but when you huck a baby you do 2S (+1 DV value for thrown items.)

The quip about meatballs says that meatballs are NOT improvised throwing weapons. They are fun to throw, but ineffective as weapons. Maybe really old meatballs would do S/2 damage, but even with missile mastery, a regular meatball would do 0 because it does not even have the potential to be deadly. I think that's how you distinguish it: can the object ordinarily do damage? Anything hard or sharp certainly could. But soft things like food items could virtually never be deadly. The object has to be plausible as an improvised throwing weapon. Only satisfying the criterion of being an object is not enough. And for me, it also has to pass the cool test. I won't let anyone with missile mastery turn one of my runs into a cartoon, that's just beyond the pale.

[Drogos]

I send CZ assassin death squads to take out all baby tossers, especially dead baby tossers. I only send corp sec squads after Dwarf tossers though. I mean, they are just sportsmen, right?

[Dumori]

Well for the throwing of gravel you could treat it like a shotgun (the RAW rules) with no plus to DV or even a negative. You'd have a weapon that could wound a few people but normally wont.