Spirit Issues, Should Hermetic and Shamanic be different Options

[nathanross]

I have been going over the old separation between Elementals and Nature Spirits (and later Loa and Spirits of the Elements), and I wonder what everyone else's opinion on the benefits/detriments of the old system are. Also, are there issues with the new system?

The biggest difference is that all the Spirits have been thrown into shared categories and all the powers combined (so they now all have a lot of powers). Traditions also are now split by Drain code and the 5 spirits they can summon/bind. This is great for simplicity, bad for flavor/uniqueness.

After that, there is the new concept that all traditions can bind spirits. This is sometimes hard to work from a flavor point of view. Would the Loa take offense at their servant binding them? How does a shaman rationalize binding a spirit of nature? It just seems like spirit slavery to me, and I feel that the traditions that actually respect their spirits would not do such a thing. Am I wrong in this?

I also like the balance that Shamans have in that they are limited by Domain and Hermetics can only Summon via Binding. Overall, I guess I like more thought, less stat crunching (why should I summon a spirit of water/earth/fire when I can summon/bind and air spirit that is better? I also like how they may not always have a spirit at their beck and call.

What are your thoughts?

[FrankTrollman]

Some traditions view "binding" as an extended bargaining where the spirit is allowed to stay rather than being an injunction where the spirit is forced to stay. But that's a flavor concern, it sincerely does not deserve game mechanics of any sort backing it up.

Having mechanical differences between spirits creates fiddly details that are exploitable and hard to remember. The game becomes harder to play and easier to "optimize." As long as the spirits are kept general it doesn't really matter all that much what spirit types your tradition has in terms of game balance, which frees up players and game masters to tell stories.

-Frank

[adamu]

That's certainly the "playability" argument, and in those terms the genericization of the Talented in SR4 has been very successful.

But the other half of Nathan's point has great merit - SR4 made all mages the same. Toss in a lot of fancy-sounding traditions and then multiple names for each - players could do that on their own before - and all you've got is an ever-increasing menagerie of univerally-abled spellworms. 31 flavors that all taste the same. Some artificial color and flavorings added to the same soy swill that has become the Gifted in SR4.

Playing an RPG well is about good role-playing, but it is also about acting skillfully within the parameters of the game's rules. When you streamline the rules to the point where everyone's mechanics work the same, you are taking the contest one giant step towards being a mere dice-war instead of a battle of wits.

The fact that mages and shamans in SR4 had totally different spirits at their disposal, and totally different options for summoning, added a lot to the game. The feature's sacrifice was a high price to pay for "playability."

[OrionJA]

There's definitely some merit to this. But if you have street magic, the mechanical differences between traditions are more obvious. Even without, there's mentors, foci, specialization and so on to differentiate mages. If it truly bothers you, do what I do, play almost exclusively aspected magicians. Frank even has some useful variant rules that differentiate aspects further.

[HentaiZonga]

That's certainly the "playability" argument, and in those terms the genericization of the Talented in SR4 has been very successful.

But the other half of Nathan's point has great merit - SR4 made all mages the same. Toss in a lot of fancy-sounding traditions and then multiple names for each - players could do that on their own before - and all you've got is an ever-increasing menagerie of univerally-abled spellworms. 31 flavors that all taste the same. Some artificial color and flavorings added to the same soy swill that has become the Gifted in SR4.

Playing an RPG well is about good role-playing, but it is also about acting skillfully within the parameters of the game's rules. When you streamline the rules to the point where everyone's mechanics work the same, you are taking the contest one giant step towards being a mere dice-war instead of a battle of wits.

The fact that mages and shamans in SR4 had totally different spirits at their disposal, and totally different options for summoning, added a lot to the game. The feature's sacrifice was a high price to pay for "playability."

This is why I borrow liberally from the old-school WWGS Mage: the Ascension, and demand that all my Awakened spell-slingers and conjurors write up how they do magic, then handle the RP appropriately. Another useful thing to do is to treat Totem Spirit bonuses like WWGS's Exalted game's Stunt mechanic: If I feel like your Mentor Spirit strongly approves of or resonates with the action you're attempting, you get the +2 dice bonus.

[adamu]

Fine suggestions all.

No doubt, there remain ways to differentiate mages' individual mechanics (although the Qualities in Street Magic are nearly insulting in their uselessness and unplayability - different thread).
And I certainly continue to play SR4 religiously and in fact exclusively.
But I do greatly bemoan the loss of those larger and more fundamental distinctions in conjuring abilities.