Couple Questions Options

[swammeyjoe]

(Players in Swammeyjoe's OpenRPG Seattle Game Please Keep Out)

Hey all, registered several months ago but never validated the account (dunno why) so I couldn't post, finally figured out what to do so I am now able to post.

Questions:

1. Is there such a thing as a Cyber-Spirit? My plot sort of revolves around such a thing (the run could be made so easy if he helped them and hella hard if he didn't) though the party is actually doing an extraction. If there is no such thing, any tips as to how to make one. (Crunch, that is, fluff I have)

2. There any combat simulators out there for 4th ed?

3. Any general GM'ing tips for Shadowrun (Long-time DnD and WoD GM, new to SR)

Oh, and Ancient History, your site has been really helpful to me, thanks!

~
Swam
(Couldn't figure out what icon to use, so I left it blank)

[CanRay]

"1. Is there such a thing as a Cyber-Spirit?"

Well, there's rumours of lost souls in the Matrix, people who died in the two Crashes (The Internet Crash of 2029 and Crash 2.0 of 2065).

"2. There any combat simulators out there for 4th ed?"

It's called Airsoft or Paintball. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

"3. Any general GM'ing tips for Shadowrun (Long-time DnD and WoD GM, new to SR)"

Take the dark feeling of WoD, add in even more Evil Corporations and Cybernetics. And gunfights. A lot more gunfights.

[Fortune]

3. Any general GM'ing tips for Shadowrun (Long-time DnD and WoD GM, new to SR)

Don't be afraid to use all applicable negative modifiers.

[bjorn]

3. Any general GM'ing tips for Shadowrun (Long-time DnD and WoD GM, new to SR)

1. Long time player of DnD myself and Combat goes MUCH QUICKER. Each turn is only 3 seconds, so when combat is over (usually lasting a couple hours real time especially if it's everyone's first time) and your thinking "ahh, the cops are about to roll in" and then you see thats its only been 15 seconds of in game fighting, that really throws you for a loop.

2. Be flexable. You will think of 5 different ways of doing a run and your players will come up with a 6th and 7th way to do it (hey, you gotta have a backup plan). You might not write everything out, but you should try to think of as many ways as you can that the run could be completed. Your players will thank you and will be much happier.

[Matsci]

(Players in Swammeyjoe's OpenRPG Seattle Game Please Keep Out)

Hey all, registered several months ago but never validated the account (dunno why) so I couldn't post, finally figured out what to do so I am now able to post.

Questions:

1. Is there such a thing as a Cyber-Spirit? My plot sort of revolves around such a thing (the run could be made so easy if he helped them and hella hard if he didn't) though the party is actually doing an extraction. If there is no such thing, any tips as to how to make one. (Crunch, that is, fluff I have)

2. There any combat simulators out there for 4th ed?

3. Any general GM'ing tips for Shadowrun (Long-time DnD and WoD GM, new to SR)

Oh, and Ancient History, your site has been really helpful to me, thanks!

~
Swam
(Couldn't figure out what icon to use, so I left it blank)

1. Take the Free Spirit Rules, and apply them to a Sprite?

2. What do you mean by combat simulators? If you mean something where you ponk in all the combatants and it gives you the outcome, then no. Shadowrun is way to tatics based for anything like that to work.

[Cain]

Don't be afraid to use all applicable negative modifiers.

That's assuming you like things to bog down and turn into a counting exercise. Instead of trying to hunt down every last modifier, just take the top one or two modifiers, and apply those. Much faster, and gets the job done just as well.

[Snow_Fox]

For 'cyber spirit' do you mean something floating in the matrix or something materializing in the material world like a 'city spirit'

For cyber spirits, nothing official but lots of hints as far back as 1st ed. anything from people who got cut off from their decks but didn't die to AI's who evolved.

Best GM suggestions? As GM make sure you know your plot and your world. so you can be prepared for what goes down, but be flexible, be willing to go with the flow if characters go off the beam from what you planned, as long as people are having fun, that's infinately more important than following the GM's plan lock step with what he envisioned.

[Fortune]

That's assuming you like things to bog down and turn into a counting exercise. Instead of trying to hunt down every last modifier, just take the top one or two modifiers, and apply those. Much faster, and gets the job done just as well.

That's debatable. You yourself have complained about the tendency toward high dice pools, and the negative modifiers are the system's method of compensating for them. That being said, there's nothing wrong with just eyeballing things when you get a handle on the system, but in the beginning, when first learning the game (especially with both a new GM and new players), it is often better to take your time and seek out those little rules and modifiers that can sometimes make all the difference.

[HentaiZonga]

That's debatable. You yourself have complained about the tendency toward high dice pools, and the negative modifiers are the system's method of compensating for them. That being said, there's nothing wrong with just eyeballing things when you get a handle on the system, but in the beginning, when first learning the game (especially with both a new GM and new players), it is often better to take your time and seek out those little rules and modifiers that can sometimes make all the difference.

Huh, there's a thought. You know how the little side-bar in the BBB says you can "just use the highest modifier, with maybe an additional -1 if there's other modifiers on top of it?"

What if that went both ways? What if your dice pool was always augmented Attribute + augmented Skill, with the highest dice pool bonus added in, plus maybe a +1 if there are enough other modifiers? It'd lower the dice pools back down to something reasonable, without completely nerfing all the gear.

[Synner]

As a rule of thumb, if characters are using regular builds (without optimized dice pools) the quick resolution system of taking the highest negative modifier available and tacking on a -1 is indeed more than sufficient. If, however, you look at the character sheets and there are more than three combat dice pools over 15 dice then it is preferable, in the interest of game balance, to use the full modifiers. As Fortune said it's perfectly okay to eyeball it, once you're familiar with the basics. For instance, typical Shadowrun "street" or "intrusion" firefights using basic cover, movement, and lighting will generally have modifiers of between -5 and -9 plus any uncorrected recoil modifiers. This is neither an accounting exercise nor time-consuming.

I usually keep the following formula on hand and use it as a baseline for eyeballing things.

Attacker's dice pool modifiers:
-4 Target has good cover
-1 Attacker firing from cover (even if he stands up, fires, and ducks again this counts, my players know better than to stay in the open)
-2 Anything but optimal lighting (except for lowlight)
- Wound modifiers
- Uncompensated recoil

Sorcery is very powerful, so make sure you apply all the regular visibility and cover combat modifiers to the spellcaster (knocking on average -5 dice from the pool and as much as -9).

Also note that you shouldn't be afraid to reduce a characters dice pool to 0 through modifiers. This is counterintuitive to people coming from other systems and from previous editions, but all it means is that the tactical circumstances at that specific moment dictate that the character isn't likely to hit, except if he gets exceptionally lucky (uses Edge). The character can always hold his action for the situational modifiers to change (waiting for a target to stick its head out or move) or he can fall back on a reliable tactic of spraying the area with suppressive fire. This applies to both NPCs and player characters.

[Cain]

That's debatable. You yourself have complained about the tendency toward high dice pools, and the negative modifiers are the system's method of compensating for them. That being said, there's nothing wrong with just eyeballing things when you get a handle on the system, but in the beginning, when first learning the game (especially with both a new GM and new players), it is often better to take your time and seek out those little rules and modifiers that can sometimes make all the difference.

And then, you and your players get the idea that the game resolution is slower than it needs to be. The game resolves slowly enough that adding in a game of "Find the Modifier" really doesn't help, and can turn players off.

As a rule of thumb, if characters are using regular builds (without optimized dice pools) the quick resolution system of taking the highest negative modifier available and tacking on a -1 is indeed more than sufficient. If, however, you look at the character sheets and there are more than three combat dice pools over 15 dice then it is preferable in the interest of game balance to use the full modifiers.

Now *that's* debateable. If the GM is also using optimized builds, then in all fairness, he needs to be using the same modifier method he's forcing the players to use. Now, we've got a count-the-modifier game for many more characters. This becomes especially evident in a social opposed test, where each person has a different set of modifiers to calculate.

Also note that you shouldn't be afraid to reduce a characters dice pool to 0 through modifiers. This is counterintuitive to people coming from other systems and from previous editions, but all it means is that the tactical circumstances at that specific moment dictate that the character isn't likely to hit, except if he gets exceptionally lucky (uses Edge). The character can always hold his action for the situational modifiers to change (waiting for a target to stick its head out or move) or he can fall back on a reliable tactic of spraying the area with suppressive fire. This applies to both NPCs and player characters.

We've discussed this multiple times. The consensus is that reducing a dice pool to zero just means the player is free to pile on the modifiers as high as possible, to get a more spectacular result, all without altering his odds of success. It doesn't matter if the Edge 3 character is at a dice pool of -2 or -200; he still gets the same 3 dice to roll.

[HentaiZonga]

The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of having 'dice pool modifiers' apply consistently, + or -. And I think I like the 'highest only, with a +1 if the rest would amount to more than half of the highest'. For example: the Elven Pornomancer.

This Pornomancer has a Charisma of 10, and a Con (Make You My Bitch) of 10(12). He has this due to Genetic Optimization, Exceptional Attribute, Aptitude, and the Improved Ability power.

That's a total dice pool of 22, before dice pool modifiers.

Now, we throw in positive dice pool modifiers. First, Kinesics 5 provides a +5 bonus. Next, Tailored Pheremones 2 provides a +2 bonus. So far, he's getting a +5 total, since Tailored Pheremones 2 only provides a +2, which is less than half of the +5. But! If he can manage to throw in First Impression for another +2, that brings his total 'other' modifiers to +4, giving him a net modifier of +5.

Now, the GM piles on the hate. He's talking to a Humanis (-4 for racial hatred), is currently covered in trash from having been thrown in a dumpster (-2), and is injured (-3). The -2 and -3 are more than half of the -4, so they add another -1 to the -4, for a total of -5.

Huh. I kinda like this, as it will never provide more than a +7 modifier to any reasonable test.

[Fortune]

If by 'consensus', you mean 'your pet crusade, then you'd be right. Otherwise, I remember no such consensus at all, and in fact recall exactly the opposite.

[Synner]

Now *that's* debateable. If the GM is also using optimized builds, then in all fairness, he needs to be using the same modifier method he's forcing the players to use. Now, we've got a count-the-modifier game for many more characters. This becomes especially evident in a social opposed test, where each person has a different set of modifiers to calculate.

I mentioned nothing about the rules not going both ways and I specifically referred to combat. However, there's no reason why combat should slow down particularly if the gamemaster and players keeps a quick reference formula (similar to what I've posted above or Aaron's useful cheat sheets) on hand.

Other Tests are equally easy and fast to resolve, and are similarly easy to eyeball if you run through them a couple of times before play and familiarize yourself with the two or three modifiers that apply most regularly (similar to cover and visibility being the staple modifiers in the combat scenarios). Obviously familiarity with the system helps, and regular use of the mechanics will enhance your grasp of the "usual" modifiers.

We've discussed this multiple times. The consensus is that reducing a dice pool to zero just means the player is free to pile on the modifiers as high as possible, to get a more spectacular result, all without altering his odds of success. It doesn't matter if the Edge 3 character is at a dice pool of -2 or -200; he still gets the same 3 dice to roll.

Though you seem to bring it up rather often, there is no such "consensus". Don't get me wrong though I agree with you - that's exactly what should happen. Where I disagree with you is that its in anyway a mechanical flaw or problem with the system.

As I've mentioned multiple times before, that is exactly how the system is meant to work. Not only is there a finite number of modifiers, but the system is designed so that sometimes you have the option of going on luck if you want. Another element of the system is that it balances the use of luck by letting the other guy (the GM in this case) use his luck (Edge) too to counter yours.

When an Edge 3 character decides to try his luck (as opposed to holding an action or putting down suppressive fire) and throws those 3 dice, the other side gets to use Edge (or Group Edge, as the case may be) to boost his/her Dodge dice pool. At Edge 3-4, they typically balance each other out (nice design that), even if the opponent opts not to go full defense.

Occasionally, you get a Mr. Lucky (an optimized Edge character for those who haven't been following) and he gets to slightly unbalance things because he throws in 3 or 4 more dice than the Edge 3 character (one hit on average). The opposition still gets to use Edge to counter this, though against Mr. Lucky they might consier boosting their full defense dice pool. All things considered since Mr Lucky's Edge-based dice pool is capped, he's going to average one hit.

If a gamemaster isn't comfortable with that particular feature of SR4, he can always veto Mr. Lucky from his game during the GM approval stage of chargen (just like I recently vetoed an enchanter character with all 1's in physical attibutes, because I didn't feel he fit with the group's style of play).

[Cain]

If by 'consensus', you mean 'your pet crusade, then you'd be right. Otherwise, I remember no such consensus at all, and in fact recall exactly the opposite.

Oh, as Synner pointer out, the Longshot test issue is well known and well-accepted here. The question is how much of a problem you think it is. Synner seems to think that it's not an issue, while many others think it's enough of a problem to generate various house rules to fix it. However, the fact remains that the total number of modifiers no longer matters once you reach negative numbers. -2 is the same as -200.

I mentioned nothing about the rules not going both ways and I specifically referred to combat. However, there's no reason why combat should slow down particularly if the gamemaster and players keeps a quick reference formula (similar to what I've posted above or Aaron's useful cheat sheets) on hand.

Even with Aaron's wonderful cheat sheets, you still won't have a handy list of all modifiers for all conceivable tests readily available. Also, you invite rules-lawyering; if the GM is free to hunt down every last negative modifier, the players are equally encouraged to do the same for positive modifiers. That can turn a game into a bickering session, where both GM and players argue over each and every one-die modifier that might possibly be applied.

[Synner]

Oh, as Synner pointer out, the Longshot test issue is well known and well-accepted here. The question is how much of a problem you think it is. Synner seems to think that it's not an issue, while many others think it's enough of a problem to generate various house rules to fix it. However, the fact remains that the total number of modifiers no longer matters once you reach negative numbers. -2 is the same as -200.

As I've said again and again, I have no problem with the Luckiest Man on Earth successfully averaging one extra hit in a combat situation when running on pure luck against an opponent boosting his own defensive scores with Edge. If the opponent has a basic Dodge dice pool of 6+, Mr. Lucky won't even average that.

Most people's problems with the "Long Shot issue" relate specifically to the Long Shot/Mr Lucky combo. Given a non-optimized Edge character build the "issue" shouldn't be problematic as long as the gamemaster makes sure to use Edge for the opposition too. Even with Mr. Lucky the average number of hits is going to be 2, so hardly spectacular.

Even with Aaron's wonderful cheat sheets, you still won't have a handy list of all modifiers for all conceivable tests readily available.

You don't need to have every last modifier that might apply, but you should have list . And part of my trick to save time is to divide the work between the player and the gamemaster (with the gamemaster having final call). The player has a list of his "fixed" modifiers on his character sheet, and the gamemaster, at most, just has to look up one table if he doesn't know it by heart (thinking back it's been more than a year since I had to crack open the BBB to look at the combat modifiers table(s), and then it was because the player expressed a doubt about the Dodge modifiers).

Even if I'm not familiar with the player and/or character, when we get to the resolve action stage of an Action Phase in combat (or pretty much any other situation), I ask my player to tell me his dice pool and modifiers the first couple of times they come up, I dutifully jot down that number for future reference in my personal cheat sheet, then I list the situational/circumstantial modifiers applicable and give him/her a total dice pool to roll. That typically takes less than 20 seconds. After the first Combat Turn I don't even need to ask the player for his dice pool + modifiers (though I ask if they have any other applicable modifiers due to different circumstances).

The same logic applies to all other Tests, you place the onus on the player of knowing his basic dice pool and "regular" modifiers, and the gamemaster has the onus of providing the circumstantial modifiers. Even for something as "complex" and diverse as Social Modifiers it should take less than 30 seconds to look up the two charts needed on p.121 and 122 of SR4 and running down the list another 30 tops (that's if you don't have a screen or cheat sheet on hand to save you looking things up.) Of course familiarity with the system and having players who understand they need to contribute to keep things flowing helps.

Also, you invite rules-lawyering; if the GM is free to hunt down every last negative modifier, the players are equally encouraged to do the same for positive modifiers. That can turn a game into a bickering session, where both GM and players argue over each and every one-die modifier that might possibly be applied.

Maybe at your table this is the case. I've been playtesting, playing with a regular group, and doing demos with complete newbies to the system for 3+ years and in all that time I've never had anyone bicker or waste time when they have to list their dice pools and modifiers in front of everyone and I'm providing modifiers from a list or table that's also available to everyone. YMMV.

[Malicant]

We've discussed this multiple times. The consensus is that reducing a dice pool to zero just means the player is free to pile on the modifiers as high as possible, to get a more spectacular result, all without altering his odds of success. It doesn't matter if the Edge 3 character is at a dice pool of -2 or -200; he still gets the same 3 dice to roll.

3 dice is still just one success on avarage, 3 tops. That is hardly spectacular. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's so much fun to have you back on your crusade. Keep it up.

[Cain]

As I've said again and again, I have no problem with the Luckiest Man on Earth successfully averaging one extra hit in a combat situation when running on pure luck against an opponent boosting his own defensive scores with Edge. If the opponent has a basic Dodge dice pool of 6+, Mr. Lucky won't even average that.

We're basically saying the same thing here: we both acknowledge the issue, but you don't seem to think it's a problem, while I and many others have been discussing house-rule fixes since SR4 came out. YMMV.

However, your math is wrong. Assuming the opponent has a defensive pool of 6, that'll equal two successes. Mr. Lucky's 8 Edge will equal 2.66 successes, rounded to 3. Something of a nitpick, I know, but Mr. Lucky still has the edge (pun intended).

3 dice is still just one success on avarage, 3 tops. That is hardly spectacular.

That one success can make all the difference. For example, an Edge 1 Pornomancer won't do as well at the same social test as a Cha 1, Etiquette 1, Edge 4 Uncouth troll samurai, once the modifiers push them to the negatives. The Pornomancer should always do better at social occasions than the Uncouth troll, but that's just not how it works out.

[Sponge]

That one success can make all the difference. For example, an Edge 1 Pornomancer won't do as well at the same social test as a Cha 1, Etiquette 1, Edge 4 Uncouth troll samurai, once the modifiers push them to the negatives. The Pornomancer should always do better at social occasions than the Uncouth troll, but that's just not how it works out.

As the saying goes, "sometimes it's better to be lucky than to be good" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fortune]

... while I and many others have been discussing house-rule fixes since SR4 came out.

Really? Would you mind giving me a few examples of those proposed 'house rule fixes'? The reason I ask is that the only conversations I remember clearly about this subject do not actually involve 'many others' looking for alternatives, but more the 'many others' debating and refuting your personal point of view.

[Malicant]

That one success can make all the difference. For example, an Edge 1 Pornomancer won't do as well at the same social test as a Cha 1, Etiquette 1, Edge 4 Uncouth troll samurai, once the modifiers push them to the negatives. The Pornomancer should always do better at social occasions than the Uncouth troll, but that's just not how it works out.

If a task becomes impossible the one having more Edge should be better at it, because, you know, Edge is the weird luck, imposible stuff attribute.
Now, please tell me how stupid SR4 is because of the Edge attribute actually granting an edge to someone who bothered raising it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Also, if your opponent has any kind of defense one success will not make a huge impact. And will be never ever spectacular. It is a small chance. A Longshot. Huh. Weird, isn't it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Cain]

Really? Would you mind giving me a few examples of those proposed 'house rule fixes'? The reason I ask is that the only conversations I remember clearly about this subject do not actually involve 'many others' looking for alternatives, but more the 'many others' debating and refuting your personal point of view.

Rotbart has simply banned Longshot tests entirely. James McMurray had several proposed fixes. There are many others, but since those two are in the "Anti-Cain-No-Matter-How-Right-He-IS" camp, I thought those would make a nice opening.

[swammeyjoe]

It appears I opened a can of worms. Sorry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Beyond that, any tips to speed up combat, or anyone willing to help teach the combat system to me, everytime I try it I feel like I'm doing something wrong.

[Fortune]

It appears I opened a can of worms. Sorry

No need to apologize. It was about that time anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Beyond that, any tips to speed up combat, or anyone willing to help teach the combat system to me, everytime I try it I feel like I'm doing something wrong.

Where are you having trouble?

[Malicant]

It appears I opened a can of worms. Sorry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Nah, as Fortune said it was about time. Happens now and then, simply ignore it and ask your questions as if nothing happened. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Beyond that, any tips to speed up combat, or anyone willing to help teach the combat system to me, everytime I try it I feel like I'm doing something wrong.

Combat speeds up as GM and player get more used to the rules, so the first tip is "do it". There are also a lot of pitfals in the system, like bonus dice and penalties, splitting of dicepools for two weapon combat, etc, etc. But don't worry, first those rules will slow down your game, but you will get used to it (and they will stop slowing you down, btw). SR is unfortunatly not a simple as D&D where you can ignore everything beyond the basic attack and still have fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also, you cannot do something wrong if you are the GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)