The Deal with Grenades, Like, what the hell? Options

[Hamfister]

Hey guys. I'm gonna be running my first SR4 campaign in a few weeks and I'm trying to get a handle on the rules but I have some questions regarding grenades.

So, you can either target an opponent directly as a stardard Oppose Test or you can target a spot on the ground as a Success Test. The shadowrun4.com FAQ says that if the intent is to catch an opponent or a group of opponents in the blast radius then it should be considered an Oppose Test whether the grenade is thrown at a target or a few meters away.

Question 1: Why is that and why does it matter?

Question 2: If you do attempt to throw it at a target as an Oppose Test, what happens if you fail? You miss your target but where does the grenade go? It's not like bullets that miss and are gone--the grenade's gotta go somewhere! How is that determined? What does it mean for the defender to "dodge" a grenade?

[kzt]

1) They do something equally silly for area affect spells, because they seem to feel that it makes sense for people to be able to dodge fireballs and grenades without actually moving.

2) Your guess is as good as mine, as they don't cover that little bit. As far as I can tell the rules assume that the missed grenade vanishes, as does the missed fireball. We typically used airbursted GLs, so we assumed that if you hit the grenade went off within 1 meter and that the fireball went off where the mage planned. So we really didn't care whether they dodged or not.

[Wounded Ronin]

Kzt, you're simply not understanding the scope of the artistic vision and hardcore game design through thoroughly crunched possibilities that the SR4 authors have delivered unto you with a silver platter. The answer is that the dodging character bends backwards at the knees and flails his arms in order to be completely invulnerable.

[XON2000]

Hey guys. I'm gonna be running my first SR4 campaign in a few weeks and I'm trying to get a handle on the rules but I have some questions regarding grenades.

So, you can either target an opponent directly as a stardard Oppose Test or you can target a spot on the ground as a Success Test. The shadowrun4.com FAQ says that if the intent is to catch an opponent or a group of opponents in the blast radius then it should be considered an Oppose Test whether the grenade is thrown at a target or a few meters away.

Question 1: Why is that and why does it matter?

Question 2: If you do attempt to throw it at a target as an Oppose Test, what happens if you fail? You miss your target but where does the grenade go? It's not like bullets that miss and are gone--the grenade's gotta go somewhere! How is that determined? What does it mean for the defender to "dodge" a grenade?

I'd say that the answer to Question 1 is just a matter of game balance. They didn't want to allow for an attack that didn't provide an opportunity to defend.

When you miss with a grenade, you roll scatter as normal. You always roll scatter, but then you reduce it by the number of hits, so the better you roll, the closer you are to your target. If you get no hits, your grenade just lands way off target.

[Dreadlord]

I use grenades/rockets/missiles a little differently than you guys apparently, by using the mathematics behind the rules as presented in the BBB.

For example, Bada Boom the sammy throws a grenade at Ground Chuck the mage. Bada Boom rolls his throwing skill+AGI as normal, and Chuck rolls his REA as normal for ranged attacks. Chuck actually BEATS Bada Boom's roll by 2 net hits, so the grenade does not magically disappear and miss, but instead becomes a negative net hits on the scatter roll: 1D6 - (-4), or 1D6 + 4, therefore scattering further away the more the defender beats the attacker.

This makes a little more sense to me, and also keeps the rules pretty clean. I know there isn't a NEGATIVE net hit concept in the game, but it works pretty well for scatter.

There is no scatter for Fireball, apparently it always targets a point in space and not a single target as grenades/rockets/missiles do.

[Zak]

This is a houserule, but we always run with grenades as targeting a specific spot (+scatter ofc). People inside the target area get a Reaction+Edge (+Full Defense) roll vs. a TN based on half the distance to safety (if there is any).

[Sombranox]

I use grenades/rockets/missiles a little differently than you guys apparently, by using the mathematics behind the rules as presented in the BBB.

For example, Bada Boom the sammy throws a grenade at Ground Chuck the mage. Bada Boom rolls his throwing skill+AGI as normal, and Chuck rolls his REA as normal for ranged attacks. Chuck actually BEATS Bada Boom's roll by 2 net hits, so the grenade does not magically disappear and miss, but instead becomes a negative net hits on the scatter roll: 1D6 - (-4), or 1D6 + 4, therefore scattering further away the more the defender beats the attacker.

This makes a little more sense to me, and also keeps the rules pretty clean. I know there isn't a NEGATIVE net hit concept in the game, but it works pretty well for scatter.

There is no scatter for Fireball, apparently it always targets a point in space and not a single target as grenades/rockets/missiles do.

Scattering further away still may not scatter far enough away to put the defender out of the blast radius potentially though would it? Do you say that even though Chuck managed to dodge the blast and got two net hits, it's up to the luck of a dice roll for whether he dodged far enough to get out of the way?

In other words, the scatter on the above 1D6 + 4 from the intended point of impact (on top of chuck) has a range of 5 to 10 meters of scatter. If Chuck gets unlucky and you roll a 1, then 5 meters away is still going to be enough to cook poor Chuck, despite his awesome dodginess in that moment, wouldn't it?

I mean, that's cool if you want grenades to be that lethal, but I just always treated it that if they succeeded on the opposed roll, they managed to dive out of the blast zone. And if it was a group being rolled, I think we hand waved it as someone managing to warn the others to scatter in time for everyone to dive out of the blast zone.

Then again, I admit I've only ever had one time that someone managed to avoid a grenade blast since the heavy weapons guru at my table is the only one who uses grenades and he doesn't miss often.

[hyzmarca]

Its a grenade. I have an idea, a fun little experiment that you could try. Get a bunch of flash-bang grenades, they're relatively safe, and go out to a nice open field or quarry. There, split up into teams and have a grenade fight. Throw live flash-bangs at each other and try to dodge out of the blast radius. So he well that goes. For extra fun, practice resisting MOUT entry in the comfort of your own home by sitting in a small room and having your friends throw grenades inside.

Dodging grenades at all is a balance conceit.

[RunnerPaul]

I've never been satisfied with the FAQ's stance on grenades as it seems to disregard an important factor in the grenade rules: Once a grenade's scatter has been reduced to 0 meters from the target, any additional successes begin to stage up the damage inflicted on the grenade's target. It's the difference between a grenade that detonates at your feet and a grenade that due to an exceptional bounce detonates a centimeter away from your body, right at chest level.

Sure, it's a lot easier to target a point in space, than a mobile, dodging opponent, but by targeting a location, you give up the ability to up the damage against a specific opponent. Seems to be a fair tradeoff to me.

This also leads into my method for handling the Dodge vs. grenades question. At my table, dodge lets the grenade's target stage the damage back down to the base damage for a grenade hit at 0 meters, but no further. You want to get away from a grenade blast, that's what held actions and running are for. Oh, they're using airburst links, and you don't get that short window of time before the next Initiative Phase to react? Well, tough shit. Grenades are supposed to be painful, and airburst linked grenades especially so.

[DocTaotsu]

I think I saw a simple house rule for grenades that reads to the effect of "Grenade rules as in book, but grenades obey the laws of physics and will not scatter into another time zone." That's worked pretty well for me. Appropriate situational modifiers have helped the keep grenades not retared in my campaign. If you try to peg a moving target 25 meters away with a non airburst grenade... well things are going to get interesting. If you roll a flash bang through the one entrance/exit of a 10 by 10 room, you're going to get a lot of people with long term hearing problems.

Thrown grenades, unless you're a talented thrower, should be an art rather than a science. That's why airburst grenades exists, someone got tired of seeing grenades roll into ditches or bounce off things.

To quote from training:
"Alright doc, there's an sniper in the 2nd story window above you, what do you do?"
"Uhm, I guess I'd throw a grenade through the window... sergeant."
"Alright doc, your grenade bounces off the window, the window frame, or gets thrown back down to you. Can a MARINE tell me what we're supposed to do?"
"Shoot a fucking 203 through the window Staff Sgt!" (For the non-military fetishist in the crowd, M203 is the grenade launcher that fits under the M16)
"See doc, the Marine Corp's been kind enough to provide you with a device that is DESIGNED to keep you from killing yourself and all those good Marines around you."


I'd also check the damage tables to see if scatter is going to be a deal breaker. A flashbang has a 10 meter blast radius. That's uhm... pretty substantial. If you uses Hyz's example and the RAW I think you'll find that you'll have a great number of runners laying around with bleeding ears.
Scatter on a standard grenade (flash bang) is 1D6 -2 per net hit. As long as the thrower gets a single net hit (representing that he has indeed succesfully thrown a grenade in the general direction of the enemy and the enemy has not managed to move the hell away from it) the worst that can happen is that the grenade skitters 4 meters away from it's intended target. And... suprise! Still applies it's full 6S towards making their ears ring. If you start using grenade launcher with a smartlink airbust, suddenly you're putting grenades within 2 meters of your targets with a single net hit.

Now the rules do seem to include a disappearing grenade rules (ie. The person manages to get a whole bunch of succeses on their doge roll). I think a simple "Is it dumb" ruling would prevent the dodge ninja from avoiding damage in a 10 by 10 room. Plus, appropriate application of situational modifiers. Bonus to someone shooting into a confined space, negative to someone trying to dodge in a confined space. And like RunnerPaul said, want to run away from a grenade? That's what held actions are for.

[Wounded Ronin]

Its a grenade. I have an idea, a fun little experiment that you could try. Get a bunch of flash-bang grenades, they're relatively safe, and go out to a nice open field or quarry. There, split up into teams and have a grenade fight. Throw live flash-bangs at each other and try to dodge out of the blast radius. So he well that goes. For extra fun, practice resisting MOUT entry in the comfort of your own home by sitting in a small room and having your friends throw grenades inside.

Dodging grenades at all is a balance conceit.

Flashbangs aren't good for your eyes. And they might leave unsightly scorch marks.

Instead, there's an ideal toy for these sorts of experiments. Hornet's Nest nonlethal grenades. Supposedly they can break bones and rupture organs at close range, but that's only at close range; everyone should be fine since they're dodging. It would merely cause pain, nausea, and disorientation at that point.

[kzt]

Sadly Flash Bangs are NFA controlled devices, with a multi-hundred dollar license per. No refund when you blow it up. As someone said elsewhere, it's going to be the most expensive half-second of fun you'll ever have.

[Kagetenshi]

Its a grenade. I have an idea, a fun little experiment that you could try. Get a bunch of flash-bang grenades, they're relatively safe, and go out to a nice open field or quarry. There, split up into teams and have a grenade fight. Throw live flash-bangs at each other and try to dodge out of the blast radius. So he well that goes. For extra fun, practice resisting MOUT entry in the comfort of your own home by sitting in a small room and having your friends throw grenades inside.

Dodging grenades at all is a balance conceit.

Only sorta. See, the balance conceit is the low casualty radius; once you somehow manage to imagine a grenade with a casualty radius as small as Shadowrun's, it starts making a little more sense.

Our group's take on grenade-dodging (the SR3R rule, actually) is that each success gets you one effective meter away from the point of detonation, so -1 Power/success for SR-Offensive and -2/success for SR-Defensive. Exactly how you achieve this "effective meter" is left unstated.

~J

[Fortune]

Thrown grenades, unless you're a talented thrower, should be an art rather than a science. That's why smartlink grenades exists, someone got tired of seeing grenades roll into ditches or bounce off things.

They do? Got a page reference or quote?

[hyzmarca]

Flashbangs aren't good for your eyes. And they might leave unsightly scorch marks.

Instead, there's an ideal toy for these sorts of experiments. Hornet's Nest nonlethal grenades. Supposedly they can break bones and rupture organs at close range, but that's only at close range; everyone should be fine since they're dodging. It would merely cause pain, nausea, and disorientation at that point.

Flashbangs are also not good for the ears, I imagine. appropriate eye and ear protection is required. I was originally going to suggest it be tried with fragmentation grenades since the results should be obvious without actual trial.
Sting grenades are better for reasonably safe realistic wargames.

Sadly Flash Bangs are NFA controlled devices, with a multi-hundred dollar license per. No refund when you blow it up. As someone said elsewhere, it's going to be the most expensive half-second of fun you'll ever have.

That's why you buy them off the back of a truck from Nicolas Cage. Or you make your own, which isn't terribly difficult. The hardest part to get right is the fuse.

[Kagetenshi]

They do? Got a page reference or qoute?

For non-thrown varieties, there's the Grenadelink from Cannon Companion. For the thrown stuff there's no statted gear I'm aware of, but the Smartball Link exists.

~J

[kzt]

That's why you buy them off the back of a truck from Nicolas Cage. Or you make your own, which isn't terribly difficult. The hardest part to get right is the fuse.

Everything about creating improvised explosive devices is not terribly difficult. Even keeping them from blowing up as you make or deploy them isn't terribly difficult, but it's extremely unforgiving of any mistakes, forgotten steps or similar issues.

[Fortune]

For non-thrown varieties, there's the Grenadelink from Cannon Companion.

Yeah, I know. The post I quoted was specifically referring to thrown grenades.

For the thrown stuff there's no statted gear I'm aware of, but the Smartball Link exists.

Smartball Link did exist (but not in SR4 ... and I don't think it was listed for SR3 either), but only really as fluff, as no rules were given for how it interacts with throwing anything in Shadowrun.

[Fuchs]

Hm... the way we use grenades, we aim at a location, in special cases with a treshhold (like when trying to put one at the feet of a running target), and usually do not stage the damage up. The people in the blast area make their damage resistance checks, using reaction and possibly dodge as well.

Usually though the grenades in our campaign are used in a less detailed manner, we only really roll when they are used against PCs.

"You fire a flash bang inside the room, then charge in, shooting at the stunned targets" or "after the WP goes off behind the crates you hear screaming, and two human torches start rolling on the ground, trying to put out the flames... which are rapidly spreading over the dry, wooden crates. You notice a bunch of barrels and a no smoking sign nearby. I suggest to start running".

[Wounded Ronin]

To quote from training:
"Alright doc, there's an sniper in the 2nd story window above you, what do you do?"
"Uhm, I guess I'd throw a grenade through the window... sergeant."
"Alright doc, your grenade bounces off the window, the window frame, or gets thrown back down to you. Can a MARINE tell me what we're supposed to do?"
"Shoot a fucking 203 through the window Staff Sgt!" (For the non-military fetishist in the crowd, M203 is the grenade launcher that fits under the M16)
"See doc, the Marine Corp's been kind enough to provide you with a device that is DESIGNED to keep you from killing yourself and all those good Marines around you."

That's a very entertaining anecdote. My first answer that comes to mind is, "suppress the window". I'm sure that that's wrong, though, knowing how these things go...

[DocTaotsu]

They do? Got a page reference or qoute?

Oops.

I meant to say "airburst grenades" , let me go fix that.

That's a very entertaining anecdote. My first answer that comes to mind is, "suppress the window". I'm sure that that's wrong, though, knowing how these things go...

I probably should have specified that I-, I mean my friend, was standing underneath the window at the time. In my very limited understanding of suppressing fire, that's not a particularly helpful place to be doing that from.

Hm... the way we use grenades, we aim at a location, in special cases with a treshhold (like when trying to put one at the feet of a running target), and usually do not stage the damage up. The people in the blast area make their damage resistance checks, using reaction and possibly dodge as well.

My group seems to do that when they use grenades. Since it's just a success test against the ground (which doesn't dodge) they can typically put grenades more or less where they'd like it to go.

[Fuchs]

Reminds me of grenade training... two recruits teaming up first managed to both forget to get training grenades for the exercise, noticing it after they announced they'd throw one in the middle of the exercise, then, after stocking up with them, managed, on the first try, to hit a branch, bouncing the firecracker off it so it went off right betwen them in their ditch.

After that, I got teamed up with one of them. Suffice to say, if he had not been firing blanks he'd have shot me in the legs while "covering" me.

[kzt]

Yes, grenade simulators ARE loud when they bounce off a tree limb and go off at your feet. Umm, don't ask how I know that....

[DocTaotsu]

I don't think anyone wants to admit they make mistakes withe grenades, it doesn't exactly inspire your buddies to... uhm... stick close to you.

Another amusing story was related to me by a friend who watched someone attempt to roll a inert grenade into a room no less than three times. Boy those pesky door frames with their obscene dodge pools. I guess he caught it on the rebound the first time.

[Kagetenshi]

I probably should have specified that I-, I mean my friend, was standing underneath the window at the time. In my very limited understanding of suppressing fire, that's not a particularly helpful place to be doing that from.

I'm not so sure about that—I mean, it's worse than a better angle which would restrict the available non-hazardous space in the room more, but you still keep whoever it is from sticking something important out the window to try to take a shot at you.

Of course, you need to make sure there aren't any non-targets downwind if you start shooting up in the air like that.

(Disclaimer: armchair general)

~J