Metal Storm in Shadowrun, Discussion about 4E Weaponry Options

[Tashiro]

When Arsenal was slated to come out, I mentioned a few weapons that I saw on the show Futureweapons. The technology out today as far as weapons are concerned is pretty amazing, and I thought some of it would be awesome in SR4.

Well, I checked Arsenal, and the Metal Storm weapons do exist, as I had hoped, their appearance left me disappointed. See, the Metal Storm type of gun uses an electric pulse to launch the ammunition, and the ROF for the weapon is freaking insane.

When I checked the rules on recoil for the weapon in SR, they gave it the same recoil penalty as a normal weapon. This was a shame, since the entire point to the MS weapon is that the recoil doesn't come until after you've already emptied the clip.

(To check it out: http://www.metalstorm.com/ and look at the Discovery Channel video)

[kzt]

True, but ALL the gun rules are screwed up.

If you want to talk about future weapons, SR has never done effective seeker heads (for anything including missiles), and I have a feeling guided bullets integrated into a smartlink are a lot more likely than "stick and shock".

[Tashiro]

Ahh, I remember the bullets from 'Runaway' -- those would be cool in Shadowrun as well. Seeker bullets would be pretty interesting, I think the closest I saw was in Tir N'an Og, way back in SR 1E.

[Cain]

Technically, Metal Storm weapons *do* exist in the BBB. Take a look at the Sakura; it loads bullets by the barrel, instead of individually.

[krakjen]

The Yamaha Sakura Fubuki of the BBB is a metalstorm weapon (note the low recoil).
And I was kinda expecting Arsenal to have some Assault Rifles/MG version of it.
Ha, well...

[Daier Mune]

this has pretty much been the most disapointing aspect of 4th edition, the fact that the developers havn't kept up with contemporary themes, giving the world a retro-futuristic feel. it would have been nice if they had done a bit more to update things for the 21st century, instead of slapping in a handful of new weapons and keeping all the outdated crap from 10 years ago.

[krakjen]

Well, there is the Fubuki, Gauss rifles, Pain inducer, Laser rifles (ok those are old).
But I agree, SR4 lacks some SF weapons...

[Cain]

this has pretty much been the most disapointing aspect of 4th edition, the fact that the developers havn't kept up with contemporary themes, giving the world a retro-futuristic feel. it would have been nice if they had done a bit more to update things for the 21st century, instead of slapping in a handful of new weapons and keeping all the outdated crap from 10 years ago.

Personally, I thought they should have gone the other way. They should have kept the somewhat-kitschy, retro-futuristic feel that Shadowrun has always had, as opposed to trying to modernize it and turning the whole thing into a train wreck. Either way, you're absolutely right; trying to go contemporary and sticking with the 80's cyberpunk theme was a bad idea.

[DocTaotsu]

True, but ALL the gun rules are screwed up.

If you want to talk about future weapons, SR has never done effective seeker heads (for anything including missiles), and I have a feeling guided bullets integrated into a smartlink are a lot more likely than "stick and shock".

Because, you know, stick and shock doesn't exist in real life:

http://www.taser.com/products/law/Pages/XREP.aspx

[Fuchs]

That's the link I was looking for.

[ElFenrir]

That thing's pretty neat. Though I loathe to think about what they cost(i know, they aren't for regular, civilian use...but still. Curious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

There was a cool Youtube video of a Metal Storm weapon, too...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d8hlj4EbdsE


I dunno, as cool as 1,000,000 rounds per minute sounds, there might be a reason they tone it down in-game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Drogos]

Well, I'm not sure who intends to use this weapon of full on awesome firepower. There is a very valid reason for not having these weapons and that is because there really isn't a significant advantage, militarily, over traditional firearms. The trend in military firearms is better accuracy over volume of fire. For my evidence, look at the M-16. When it first was released, it had fully automatic fire capability. Now they have restricted it to 3 round bursts. And we see this more and more for standard infantry fighting. So the main advantage of metal storm, lots of bullets, is really not a drawing point for the military to use it over the standard battle rifle, so it is never the focus of military funding which looks at improving sighting and accuracy. Plus, all that rate of fire means is that you are going to have to carry around 5x the combat load in ammo. It's really not all that practical in anything but a pistol, ergo the Cherry Blossom Storm. Feel free to make me look like a fool...now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Fuchs]

I think metal storm is more meant for point-defense against missiles, where you want a lot of bullets put out in a very short time.

[Drogos]

Which means personal weapons are moot and all you need to is assign a threshold for the rigger to hit for them. Makes it far easier to come up with a rule. Like I said, I wasn't sure what they were intended for militarily. Shooting missiles is good (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Shiloh]

Well, I'm not sure who intends to use this weapon of full on awesome firepower. There is a very valid reason for not having these weapons and that is because there really isn't a significant advantage, militarily, over traditional firearms. The trend in military firearms is better accuracy over volume of fire. For my evidence, look at the M-16. When it first was released, it had fully automatic fire capability. Now they have restricted it to 3 round bursts. And we see this more and more for standard infantry fighting. So the main advantage of metal storm, lots of bullets, is really not a drawing point for the military to use it over the standard battle rifle, so it is never the focus of military funding which looks at improving sighting and accuracy. Plus, all that rate of fire means is that you are going to have to carry around 5x the combat load in ammo. It's really not all that practical in anything but a pistol, ergo the Cherry Blossom Storm. Feel free to make me look like a fool...now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Metalstorm has the capability (similar to the H&K G13) of throwing rounds out the barrel so fast that there is no discernible muzzle climb before the third round of a 3 round burst has been sent on its way. *That*'s where its RoF is potentially useful: making a 3 round burst *really* tight. You could say that a ultra-high RoF weapon can't *do* a "wide" burst, but its narrow bursts have more chance of defeating armour and doing more damage because of the tight grouping. IIRC, shoulder-fired, the G13 put 3 rounds inside a 3 centimetre circle, where an M16 put them in a palm-sized circle at the same range.

But mostly in modern firearms doctrine, the scatter on a 3 round burst for a standard infantryman is there to improve the chance of a hit, so you actually *want* some muzzle shake; most dogfaces will be firing wide bursts, rather than narrow. The increased hurt of a narrow burst would mostly be restricted to special ops types.

Nevertheless, arguing realism in SR firearms remains an exercise in futility. Verisimilitude is the best you can, erm, shoot for.

[Tashiro]

I know Metal Storm weapons have been introduced to Shadowrun, but their recoil mod and rate of fire don't seem to have been improved that much over conventional weaponry. I would have expected the weapon to, essentially, be a hyper-velocity weapon with a significantly lower recoil penalty.

Essentially, give it a higher burst, and delay the recoil penalty to bursts in the following action.

I don't mind the retro look too much, that's fine and all, but I do want there to be access to cutting edge (or better) technology to coincide with it, and these I want to see at least marginally realistic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Spike]

Well, if the MS weapons in Shadowrun have been given short shrift in the recoil and RoF rules, they've been given a great boon in the entire 'reloading and resupplying' area as well, possibly even in the 'inherent inaccuracy' area... its a wash then.

Lets face it: MS technology works in part because there is no cycle of action, the rounds are prestaged in the barrel one on top of the other. This means that to reload you must essentially replace the entire barrel, not just a densely packed (and more effiecently at that....) magazine. In the Fubuki, that's 'four barrels'... four times as much reloading to be done to 'top off'. MS rounds would absolutely not be compatable with conventional rounds (as they are now), making specialty rounds all that much more expensive/hard to get (availability increase) if they were available at all. Inaccuracy comes from the fact that barrel length is no longer used to provide accuracy but simply 'more ammo'... its not available to stabilize the rounds except incidentally in the case of the last few rounds out the barrel, and since it's designed to HOLD ammuntion (and fire it) less energy is spent designing the barrels to provide said accuracy.


If you want 100% accuracy in MS rounds, by all means provide it. But in addition to having to revamp 95% of Shadowrun's combat rules to carry this accuracy to all firearms, understand that you must take the bad along with the good. Don't cry that MS weapons are underpowered but reject the fact that their liabilities are not addressed either.

[Stahlseele]

Well, if the MS weapons in Shadowrun have been given short shrift in the recoil and RoF rules, they've been given a great boon in the entire 'reloading and resupplying' area as well, possibly even in the 'inherent inaccuracy' area... its a wash then.

Lets face it: MS technology works in part because there is no cycle of action, the rounds are prestaged in the barrel one on top of the other. This means that to reload you must essentially replace the entire barrel, not just a densely packed (and more effiecently at that....) magazine. In the Fubuki, that's 'four barrels'... four times as much reloading to be done to 'top off'. MS rounds would absolutely not be compatable with conventional rounds (as they are now), making specialty rounds all that much more expensive/hard to get (availability increase) if they were available at all. Inaccuracy comes from the fact that barrel length is no longer used to provide accuracy but simply 'more ammo'... its not available to stabilize the rounds except incidentally in the case of the last few rounds out the barrel, and since it's designed to HOLD ammuntion (and fire it) less energy is spent designing the barrels to provide said accuracy.


If you want 100% accuracy in MS rounds, by all means provide it. But in addition to having to revamp 95% of Shadowrun's combat rules to carry this accuracy to all firearms, understand that you must take the bad along with the good. Don't cry that MS weapons are underpowered but reject the fact that their liabilities are not addressed either.

you know . . with you calling it MS the whole time, i now envision Weapons and Ammo and Stuff with the Windows logo on them . . x.x . .

[CanRay]

Useless as a personal weapon, but one *HELL* of a surprise if set up as a boobytrap!

Of course, a Claymore Mine works almost as well.

Almost.

[kzt]

Because, you know, stick and shock doesn't exist in real life:

http://www.taser.com/products/law/Pages/XREP.aspx

Sure, and fired at 1300 FPS it will do what?

[Spike]

you know . . with you calling it MS the whole time, i now envision Weapons and Ammo and Stuff with the Windows logo on them . . x.x . .

Well, we can assume the Gate Empire is still around in 2070, possibly major shareholders in one or more of the Megas... And do you REALLY think they won't be selling you 'upgrades' of your Smartlink OS every couple of years at full price?

[CanRay]

And now I'm thinking of "1-800-Magic"... Ares Tech Support...

[Stahlseele]

well, there WAS that one Gates offspring in Prime Runners i think . .
we once were planning on a whole campaign utilizing that NPC to bring about the change from 3rd to 4th in a different, glorioous corp. war by first using him to ruin other corps and get them to go at each other and have him take the blame . . yes, this as shortly after the SR/CS "game" and the C&D-Order for Shadowrun Online

[CanRay]

When I get my campaign started, I'm going to show how MicroDeck is going to hit the market once more... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Fortune]

MicroDeck still exists ... as does the Gates Casino.