Assault Cannon (Sort of) Options

[DocTaotsu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyAl9qK3Rlg

Well I think it looks like an assault cannon, and it's fired from the shoulder of all things.

[Stahlseele]

"Remember to keep 80% of your Weight on your front Foot"
yep, i like that bit *g*
but that's more like a rocket launcher neh? O.o

[Daier Mune]

jeebus. looks like they took the design for a recoilless rifle and...took out the recoilless part.

[DocTaotsu]

That's what I thought originally (that it was a rocket launcher) but it really looks it fires shells of some sort. Maybe it's some sort of hybrid mortar/rocket thing, I have no idea.

I just like the fact that it evidently fires a round the size of an ork's forearm. I'd imagine it'd be easier to fire from the hip and with a smartlink system it'd still be extremely accurate.

<Update>
I'm... still not really sure what it's shooting but it's like a shoulder fired mortar/super grenade thing.
http://www.militarycity.com/blackwater/blackwater3.html

It doesn't have fantastic range (like I'd expect a true man portable assault cannon to have) but it certainly looks cool. They've mentioned that it could be fitted for less than lethal rounds and as a snot cannon (firing the real life equivalent to freeze foam) it would be pretty cool.

[Stahlseele]

it fires the whole projectile it seems . . i did not see any discarded shells on the ground after the fact O.o
and from the hip, it'd probably be harder to lean 80% of your body into it and the point of weight would probably be all wrong too O.o

[ornot]

Speaking as a layperson, I'm curious what would be the distinction between a rocket launcher and a cannon.

Tentatively I'd put forward the suggestion that a rocket propels itself, while the propellant for this cannon shell is expended within the weapon itself.

I do like how the spent cartridge pops out the back.

[Stahlseele]

is there really a cartridge coming out the back?
or is there only the blast like with many shoulder held launchers?
if there is a cartridge it's in the gun category, if there's only blast it's a launch-weapon

[ornot]

looks like a cartridge at 0.39, although it's only there for a fraction of a second.

Also I could be wrong, but I heard a 'ding' sound as of a large hollow metal object striking the ground.

[DocTaotsu]

yeah, I'm not finding a whole lot of info on this because my google-fu is weak. but I don't see a cartridge sliding out the back after they fire (or that one guy falls on his ass) so it's suggest that it's actually a rocket launcher that you can shoot in a vehicle without mulching yourself and everyone around you.

If you go to the next page on the Blackwater review page it looks like they're trying to bring back the personal mortar thing. The Japanese used them a great deal in WWII and supposedly they were pretty damn effective. The whole aiming with the hand thing is a great deal easier than it looks (so I've read at least) and it's certainly easier to correct fire.

On a historical note the little hand mortars the Japanese used had this pad because you were supposed to fire it from the thigh. Evidently this wasn't the most comfortable experience in the world.

[ornot]

Hmmm... I've looked at it carefully, and after the guy falls on his arse you can definitely see two spent cartridges on the ground behind the standing guy who takes the weapon.

Of course, if it's a mortar that makes it not a cannon, right? But while I've played with rifles and shotguns, I've not used or even been close to anything heavier.

[DocTaotsu]

Er wait... that does make it a cannon or sorts.

[ornot]

So how does one differentiate a cannon from a mortar from a rocket launcher? Obviously I have a few ideas/theories, but I'd appreciate a weapons expert to clarify/refute me.

[Stahlseele]

launcher is whole projectile going away and going boom without any cartridges, cannons are usually butt-loaded with the casings staying behind and mortars are mostly muzzle loaded with the cartridge staying behind . . launchers and cannons can to direct fire while mortars usually only do indirect artillery like firing

[DocTaotsu]

That's a very interesting question because I'm having difficulty coming up with a simple explanation.

Mortars and cannon's both rely upon an explosive charge that generates a great deal of rapidly expanding gas in a confined area, propelling a typically unguided projectile towards a target.

In contrast a rocket carriers a fuel source that it burns for at least part of the way to the target and doesn't rely upon some sort of external barrel to generate enough pressure to get on it's way.

The difference between a mortar and a cannon is that a cannon relies upon a cartridge to contain the propellant whereas the mortar round is self contained. Performance wise a mortar generates lower pressure and propels larger rounds in an arc for indirect fire. A cannon typically generates much higher pressure and propels the round more rapidly for direct fire (ie. I can I see it so I shoot it).

That's my understanding at least. Does that help?

[ornot]

The difference between rockets and cannons/mortars was pretty much what I thought.

I'm not sure I quite understand the difference between a cannon and a mortar. Is anything left behind in a mortar cylinder after the projectile has been launched?

A cartridge, as I understand it, is the charge used to contain the propellant, which is commonly attached to the projectile and enclosed in a metal case. Am I to understand that a mortar round uses some other method?

As far as direct vs indirect fire, where do artillery such as howitzers come into the equation? I understand that they can be used for both direct and indirect fire, although I am prepared to admit that my grasp of such things is extremely limited (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[reepneep]

*nothing relevant to say, someone beat me to it*

[WearzManySkins]

Since I am at work and it seems my access to YouTube is nonfunctional.

It could be recoiless rifle.

The Japanese small mortar is not designed to be fire from the thigh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Myth
Japanese Knee Mortar

Some anti tank launchers have a counter weight ejected out the rear to reduce/negate recoil etc.

WMS

[DocTaotsu]

Not in any of the mortars I've seen but I'm not a mortarman so I couldn't tell you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Mortars have the propellant attached to the round but it doesn't shed the propellant casing inside the chamber. Presumably this lets you get a fairly high rate of fire on a huge shell from a very portable and simple device.

Modern artillery/howitzers typically only provide indirect fire and I'm not sure if they're still designed to be lowered enough that you can use them in a direct fire capacity. I have to admit that I too am far far outside my field of study so i yield the floor to more learned folks.

or wiki.

[ornot]

Since I am at work and it seems my access to YouTube is nonfunctional.

It could be recoiless rifle.

Definately not recoiless. It would be fair to say this thing has beastly recoil, but considering the size of the projectile it's surprisingly low. From the looks of it, I'd say it's about the size of a pint beer can, including cartridge - if it is a cartridge.

The Japanese small mortar is not designed to be fire from the thigh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Myth
Japanese Knee Mortar

Some anti tank launchers have a counter weight ejected out the rear to reduce/negate recoil etc.

WMS

Could be a counter weight, assuming I am right in my assertion that something is coming out the back besides gases.

Reading about the Japanese handheld mortar has actually cleared up a lot of my queries about the structure of the mortar round, and what distinguishes it from a cannon shell. It seems the cartridge that contains the propellant that launches the mortar round goes with the round, which, while from a physics perspective is inefficient, would logically make the weapon easier to fire. Since the amount of propellant is, I guess, rather lower than is needed in a cannon, the cartridge can be correspondingly smaller.

[DocTaotsu]

The Japanese small mortar is not designed to be fire from the thigh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Myth
Japanese Knee Mortar

Eh, that's just what the guy who was giving the Battle of Okinawa tour told us, that weird curved baseplate seemed to back him up so I believed him.

We are talking about a country that put a bayonet mount on a light machine gun. It wouldn't be the least practical thing they designed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But yeah, it sounds like the curved base plate was just a design thing, not something you're actually expected to use on your thigh.

[Kyoto Kid]

...was able to freeze frame and enlarge the image just after the shot & it looks like a cartridge to me.

[DocTaotsu]

So it's vaguely an assault cannon then. Sweetness.

[Daier Mune]

The difference between rockets and cannons/mortars was pretty much what I thought.

I'm not sure I quite understand the difference between a cannon and a mortar. Is anything left behind in a mortar cylinder after the projectile has been launched?

A cartridge, as I understand it, is the charge used to contain the propellant, which is commonly attached to the projectile and enclosed in a metal case. Am I to understand that a mortar round uses some other method?

As far as direct vs indirect fire, where do artillery such as howitzers come into the equation? I understand that they can be used for both direct and indirect fire, although I am prepared to admit that my grasp of such things is extremely limited (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Mortars are essentialy small, man-portable artilery pieces (or howitzers are large, vehicle mounted, mortars). they're designed for indirect fire, launching thier projectile up in the air, and dropping down on the target. modern mortars are air-bursing GPS guided explosives. Cannons delvier a shell directly at thier target, utilizing both explosive and/or kinetic energy to kill thier target.

[Crusher Bob]

Sigh.

The 'proper' use of howitzer vs gun depends on the barrel length. A howitzer (from haubitze, also where Bilbo's people get their name 'hobbit'), has a much shorter barrel, and a much shorter range. On the plus side they are much lighter for the weight of shells they throw. As a sample, a 105mm field gun weighs about at much as a 155mm howitzer. Almost all artillery cannon these days qualify as howitzers or gun-howitzers, so the term has become generic to describe any artillery cannon.

The advantage of the mortar is a much lighter weight for the shell thrown. A 81mm mortar will weigh around 75 kg, a ~80mm howitzer will come closer to 1500 kg. The max range on the mortar will be around 5km, while the max range of the howitzer will be somewhere between 15km depending on how heavily you want to build the gun. Of couse, they will both have about the same effect on stuff you shoot at with them, so everyone picks the mortar.

[WearzManySkins]

A mortar is a muzzle-loading indirect fire weapon that fires shells at low velocities, short ranges, and high-arcing ballistic trajectories. It typically has a barrel length less than 15 times its caliber.

A howitzer is a type of artillery piece that is characterized by a relatively short barrel and the use of comparatively small explosive charges to propel projectiles at trajectories with a steep angle of descent

Mortars come an various sizes with various ranges but the larger ones are not man portable.

Would have liked to have seen what that weapons damage downrange was. Besides having to keep 80% of you body weight in the front leg is a guarantee of soldier injuries/mistakes. US Armed forces have enough issues teaching some troops how to throw a hand grenade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS