Wired reflex question Options

[Raavek]

In the book for wired reflexes, it says rating 1 costs 11,000 nuyen, and level 2 costs 32,000 nuyen.

Do these stack during charactrer creation? If someone wanted to buy rating 2, would it cost 32k or would it cost 43k nuyen?

[Mordinvan]

No, the cost is the cost for the system, if you want to upgrade cyberware you need arsenal. But 32K will get you a nice new shiny wired reflexes 2

[de4dmeta1]

No, the cost is the cost for the system, if you want to upgrade cyberware you need Augmentation. But 32K will get you a nice new shiny wired reflexes 2

Emphasis mine, as I see no cyberware skimming through the ToC in Arsenal.
Rules for upgrading cyberware can be found p.128, Augmentation.

[nathanross]

Wired Reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement.

This means that you cannot stack Wired with Wired, Synaptic, Magic, or Move by Wire. I personally allow them all to be combined with Reaction Enhancers, but that is a choice for my games. When you have more than one system in you body, only the best one applies.

[Rad]

Or, more commonly, you get the old system removed when upgrading to the better one.

[CanRay]

This means that you cannot stack Wired with Wired, Synaptic, Magic, or Move by Wire. I personally allow them all to be combined with Reaction Enhancers, but that is a choice for my games. When you have more than one system in you body, only the best one applies.

Or they fight with each other, and rip themselves from your body in a spasm of pain and gore as you try to do the most simple of movements.

Which can be fun to watch, but not experience.

[Rad]

I don't think any of those systems actually move, they carry electrical signals which make your muscles move, so you're more likely to overstress the tissue and rip your arms apart (A la Motoko trying to pry the hatch off the arachniform tank in Ghost In the Shell) than to have your cyberware nerves rip themselves out of your body and start dancin' a jig.

Of course, the muscles could tear your cybernerves out with them...

[CanRay]

Either way, a great way to demonstrate why it's a bad idea to stiff your Street Doc!

[Seraph Kast]

Is it possible to turn off cyberware such as Wired Reflexes and Move-By-Wire? Or are they too invasive/without a means of being turned off? Especially with Move-By-Wire, not having your body under 24-hour seizure stress would probably be a good thing.

[Mordinvan]

I'd actually develop a system where the nerves are laced with high temp (40') super conductors, and your cerebellum is enhanced with a move by wire computer, so it can 'think' faster then your regular brain, and help control your own movements better without the stress of constant seizure. If done on the up and down routes, as well as through the eyes and cranial nerves it should work better and put less stress on the body.

[Rad]

Yeah, but how much essence would it cost?

I think that's the real limiter in SR as far as "why can't I just do cool cyber thingie X?" In other words, if a piece of ware would bust game balance in half, your GM says: "Sadly, research showed this technique to be impossible without killing the patient".

As for turning it off, I believe there are several references both in the BBB (why do we call it that, by the way?) and Augmentation to cyberware having different activation options, ranging from "always on" to "mental impulse" and the always ill-advised "wireless link". I know Augmentation specifically said this was the kind of thing you had to talk over with your GM. (AKA: We're too lazy to make rules for it.)

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Wired Reflexes or Move by Wire being an "activate as needed" thing, there's even a really good cyberpunk novel called "Hard Wired" where the character's cyber-enhanced reflexes have to be triggered. One character could do it mentally, while the other one had cheaper implants that needed to be chemically activated via an inhaler.

One thing to keep in mind though, is that you're going to have to spend some kind of action to switch these things on, even if it's just a free mental action, so getting caught with your 'ware off and your pants down is really going to suck--not to mention the potential security problems.

[Seraph Kast]

Yeah, I was just thinking...I'd love to take Move-By-Wire, but the constant seizure thing just makes it...less appealing. From a story POV anyway. Being able to turn it off when you're at home, in a decent part of town, or asleep makes it feel a bit less awful. And probably explains how you can sleep without drugging yourself.

[Rad]

Yeah, but how much essence would it cost?

I think that's the real limiter in SR as far as "why can't I just do cool cyber thingie X?" In other words, if a piece of ware would bust game balance in half, your GM says: "Sadly, research showed this technique to be impossible without killing the patient".

As for turning it off, I believe there are several references both in the BBB (why do we call it that, by the way?) and Augmentation to cyberware having different activation options, ranging from "always on" to "mental impulse" and the always ill-advised "wireless link". I know Augmentation specifically said this was the kind of thing you had to talk over with your GM. (AKA: We're too lazy to make rules for it.)

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Wired Reflexes or Move by Wire being an "activate as needed" thing, there's even a really good cyberpunk novel called "Hard Wired" where the character's cyber-enhanced reflexes have to be triggered. One character could do it mentally, while the other one had cheaper implants that needed to be chemically activated via an inhaler.

One thing to keep in mind though, is that you're going to have to spend some kind of action to switch these things on, even if it's just a free mental action, so getting caught with your 'ware off and your pants down is really going to suck--not to mention the potential security problems.

[Rad]

[edit]Whoops, sorry about the double post. My connection glitched but I guess it had already sent the post when I had to refresh...[/edit]

[Sir_Psycho]

Wired Reflexes come with a reflex trigger that allows them to be turned off. However MBW seems to almost completely replace your central nervous system, rewriting the rules on how your body moves, so I don't think you can turn them off.

[Rad]

Hmm, I don't really see the evidence for that in the book...

It does imply that you can't turn it off since it says that people with MBW tend to develop motor tremors and whatnot, but with the loose grammar in SR rulebooks it could be interpreted as "tend to develop motor tremors while it's turned on"

Since they describe it as a souped-up combo of wired reflexes and skillwires, I don't see why it would replace your nervous system (skillwires is implanted along side your own nerves IIRC, and wired reflexes is only a partial replacement) and don't really see much reason why you couldn't shut it off. Only thing is, if you're that paranoid for an extra edge, why would you leave yourself vulnerable to a sneak attack like that?

So I'd say: On/Off optional, but most people would keep it on in their fraggin' sleep.

[Sir_Psycho]

Just because it performs the functions of wired reflexes and skillwires, doesn't mean that it is wired reflexes and skillwires. It's a fundamentally different system. Wired reflexes allows you to move faster, MBW moves you faster.

[Seraph Kast]

Actually what it does is actually increase how quickly your muscles will move you. Think about any time you just twitch without thinking about it. It's an involuntary motion, and even if you try, you really can't force yourself to move with the same speed as that. It's just impossible, at least without the benefits MBW are offering; that of seizure speed movements, which are insanely fast. And quite frankly, the only reason that any character would need to take MBW over WR is: it's more essence friendly than WR + Skillwires + Reflex Recorder. Once word hits the street that the bleeding edge actually is better (excepting the side effects) you can bet a lot of the more intense or professional types would want it.

[DocTaotsu]

Just because it performs the functions of wired reflexes and skillwires, doesn't mean that it is wired reflexes and skillwires. It's a fundamentally different system. Wired reflexes allows you to move faster, MBW moves you faster.

In communist russi-

Oh nevermind... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Rad]

In communist russi-

Oh nevermind... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Goddamnit, I actually LOL'd--isn't that joke supposed to be old by now? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Sir_Psycho]

Basically Seraph, I don't disagree with what you're saying. I obviously shirked making a proper point in favour of the "in communist russia" joke.

Basically, with wired reflexes, the wires are just a system of allowing your neural impulses to travel faster to your muscles and make them move. Move-By-Wire also utilizes muscles for movement (how else would it do it?), but it places a computer system between your mind and your CNS, and instead of you thinking that you want to move your hand, the MBW system picks up that command and an electrical pulse performs the muscle movement by releasing movement locks on the seizure. This is why I think MBW effectively overrides your CNS in terms of movement, and as such I personally wouldn't allow player characters to turn it off (and be able to move, anyway).

[Seraph Kast]

Well, you could always have a "normal" setting. Or at least a setting where it transmits, but not continually keeping you seizured. You'd act more or less normal then one would think. It's the constant signal thats going to do that, and if you tell it to stop, it should stop. As the book descibes it, its that your muscles are technically already moving when you think about it, there's not a period, however brief, where they have to start moving. It just so happens, the MBW is moving them in every direction at once.

Hell, I think you'd almost have to be able to turn them off. Can you imagine trying to pick up a drink at seizure speed? Or trying to eat anything? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
You'd probably starve to death without an IV if you couldn't slow it down somehow.

[Sir_Psycho]

It doesn't make all your movements lightning fast. It describes them as "unnaturally smooth", so it has to channel the path of seisure movement by imperceptible increments. So you can eat and drink quite smoothly. The seizure only becomes slightly apparent when at rest, so perhaps you pick up that shot glass very smoothly and down it quickly, but your legs under the table might occasionally twitch or shudder.

[Rad]

It doesn't make all your movements lightning fast. It describes them as "unnaturally smooth", so it has to channel the path of seisure movement by imperceptible increments. So you can eat and drink quite smoothly. The seizure only becomes slightly apparent when at rest, so perhaps you pick up that shot glass very smoothly and down it quickly, but your legs under the table might occasionally twitch or shudder.

...enabling the user to act with amazing speed and unnatural smoothness.

Emphasis mine.

It's basically an internal, computer-controlled version of a EMS machine, albeit with a different purpose in mind.

What it's doing is causing all the muscles in your body to contract at once, and then releasing the muscle groups opposing the one's you'd normally contract for a given motion. What happens is that your body is already straining at full strength, (maybe more) but the opposing muscle groups keep it in check, until they're released--like in tug-o-war when you're pulling as hard as you can and the other guy suddenly lets go of the rope.

It's similar to when people get hit by lighting and the sudden, superhumanly powerful contraction of all the major back muscles causes them to jacknife and go flying backwards at astonishing speeds. I really doubt the (meta)human body could keep that up for long, and you'd have a hell of a time sleeping. Seems like you'd pretty much have to be able to turn it off.

And there's no reason your central nervous system couldn't operate normally when it's off--try using one of those EMS machines on a high setting, then try to control the muscle group it's attached to. If the juice is cranked high enough, you won't be able to compete with the signals the machine is sending to your muscles--but cut the power and you can move just fine.

[CanRay]

It's also great for pulled muscles. My back has felt so much better after a few EMS treatments!

I'd put this one under the "GM's Discression" box, myself. Perhaps, for when you're sleeping, you can put it into a "Diagnostic Mode" that shuts it off, but also shuts you off? For the times when it's "Always On".