Neurotoxin, rules & toxins Options

[apple]

In several cases, the rules make a difference between toxins and neurotoxins, especially when in comes to immunization and nano-antidotes (Augmentation). What exactly, rulewise, are neurotoxins in SR4? Neurostun? Every poison with contact vector? Can someone point me to an existing official answer? I searched for it, but it seems that my google-fu is very weak on weekends.

SYL

[Daier Mune]

well, i think the main distinction is that a toxin is any chemical that effects the body (i would assume the liver, for the most part), a neurotoxin effects the brain.

[Ancient History]

This is a case of the left hand and right hand not talking as well as they should. Neurotoxins cover a number of natural venoms and synthetic nerve agents which affect the nervous system; they can be very difficult to defend against once they're in your system for various reasons. As a rule of thumb (or until it's FAQ'd or errata'd) assume that anything with the key words nerve gas (such as Ringu), war gas (such as Seven-7), or neurotoxic (such as Naga Venom) is a neurotoxin.

[/edit] Also, the Awakened Drug Trance.

[Irian]

Doesn't a neurotoxin affect nerves in generell, not only the neurons in the brain?

[WearzManySkins]

Neurotoxins is a broad category/term.

Some neurotoxins like Sarin/Tabun/Soman/VX,etc interfere with the chemicals that enable electrical signals/impulses to travel ie cholinesterase inhibitor.

Natural Produced/Occuring Well known Neurotoxins:
Batrachotoxin
Agitoxin
Botulinum toxin
Brevetoxin
Charybdotoxin
Cicutoxin
Ciguatoxin
Conotoxin
Dendrotoxins
Grammotoxin
Grayanotoxin
Hefutoxin
Kurtoxin
Latrotoxin
Maitotoxin
Mandaratoxin
Margatoxin
Maurotoxin
Oenanthotoxin
Palytoxin
Poneratoxin
Resiniferatoxin
Robustoxin
Saxitoxin
Scyllatoxin
Slotoxin
Taicatoxin
Taipoxin
Tetrodotoxin
Tityustoxin

Google them if you wish to see the wide range of effects etc.

Man Made list is even larger.

WMS

[apple]

Thank you for your answers. However for me it seems, that in SR4 there is no clear rule to differentiate betwenn toxins and neurotoxins mentioned in the basic book and in the Arsenal 2070, when it comes to rules like immunization.

Perhaps you can help me with the official toxins (and perhaps an author of Augmentation or Arsenal could explain what the authors would like to be covered by basic and neuro toxic immunization/Nano-Antidots).

toxin
CS
narco
nausea gas
pepper punch
arsenic
atropine
breathtaker
cyanide
eky venom
KE IV
Ymir
toxic pathogens
botullism
influenza
HSV-5
malaria
tuberculosis
VITAS
ADS
MADS
bedlam
croisade
ebola
gamma anthrax

neuro toxin
gamms scop
neuro stun
77
naga venom
nova scorpion venom
ringu
warp
white star
neuro toxic pathogen
TLE-x (special)
time bomb

What´s your opinion? And what about pathogens? Are they covered by, for example, Universal Nantidots or only by O-cells? Does a toxic extractor helps against pathogenes? Or are pathogens on a total different level/ruleset of resistance tests? It may sound silly but I have troubles to understand the difference betweens toxins and pathogens when it comes down to the resistance rules. The bioware "pathogenic defense" for example speaks of "toxin resistance tests against biological (not chemical) toxins and diseases". It seems that id doesn´t help against CS, but what about naga venom or ebola / botulism?

SYL

[WearzManySkins]

*O-Cells they are designed to deal with pathogenic organisms. In fact they are beefed up White Blood Cells aka lymphocytes.
They act like basically pathogenic armor so a rating 6 set will protect absolutely against the below except where noted:
Botulism: 4
Influenza: 2
KSV-5: 5
Tuberculois: 3
VITAS-3: 6
ADS: 4
MADS: 3
Croisade: 4
Bedlam: 6
Ebola: 8 reduced to a rating 2
Gamma-Anthrax: 8 reduced to a rating 2
Timebomb: 3(10) initial test is reduced to a power of 4 for infection.


Internal Air Tank:CS, nausea gas, pepper punch, breathtaker, Seven 7
Pathogenic Defense:Botulism, Influenza, KSV-5, Tuberculois, VITAS-3, ADS, MADS, Croisade, Ebola,
Toxin Extractor:CS, nausea gas, pepper punch, cyanide, Ekyelebenle Venom, KE IV, Naga Venom, Nova Scorpion Venom, Ringu, White Star, Ymir, Seven 7, Gamma Scoplamine, Narcojet, Neuro Stun
Tracheal Filter:CS, nausea gas, pepper punch
Nanidotes:
*Universal Nanidotes:arsenic, atropine, breathtaker, cyanide, Ekyelebenle Venom, KE IV, Naga Venom, Nova Scorpion Venom, Ringu, White Star, Ymir
oxyrush: breathtaker, pepper punch, CS

Full facial Gas Masks will prevent inhalation vectors
Full Chemical protections ie sealed suits will protect against most contact, inhalation vectors

*are the best defense for what they are designed to combat, ie they act as armor reducing the power of the vector, all the others give you extra dice to resist with. Also O-Cells are the only defense against some vectors.

TLE-x is a special disease only users of Move By Wire have a chance of contracting it.

WMS

[apple]

I think it is a very good idea to sort the different counter-measures, thank you WMS.

Why does a toxin extractor, but not an universal nantidote system work against CS / pepper punch? What about neurostun?

SYL

[WearzManySkins]

I think it is a very good idea to sort the different counter-measures, thank you WMS.

Why does a toxin extractor, but not an universal nantidote system work against CS / pepper punch? What about neurostun?

SYL

My bad your are correct.

WMS

Edited

[apple]

So no universal nantidotes agaings CS, pepper, narco or neurostun? Why? At least from the rule description they seem to be able to counter a very wide range of toxins, even neurotoxins, if they are not too exotic.

SYL

[Muspellsheimr]

Internal Air Tank:CS, nausea gas, pepper punch, breathtaker, Seven 7

Seven 7 is Contact, Inhalation vector, so an internal tank is not enough.

[Zak]

What exactly does Contact as a vector imply? Just touching the skin? In what form do the toxins come?

Sure, Seven7 is a gas, but why bother listing Inhaling when Contact is enough already?

[apple]

Contact = touching the skin. Inhalation = taking a deep breath. Normally contact-toxins are inhalation-toxins, too. But inhalation-toxins are not always contact-toxins.

SYL

[Zak]

Well, let me rephrase that: Taking a breath is something I can sell myself and my players easily. But Contact is a bit trickier. Just how much of the toxin do you have to be exposed to?

Is a small line above your gasmask enough for an effect in a room filling with Neuro-Stun? How about a bulletwound? Or does it need to touch critical areas like your eyes?
Is this the same for every gas with the Contact vector? I could argue for various approaches, but atm I can not find a proper ruling on this in the rules.

[apple]

Strictly by the rules: if you are not wearing a full chemical seal you take the contact toxin. So yes, a small line around the gas mask or a bullet hole would be enough for the contact vector. If it can reach your skin, you take the dose. However, especially when it comes to bullet wounds entry vectors, I would say that the GM can reduce the power, increase the time until the effect takes place or increase the dice pool for the resistance test (like the chemical protection modification). SR4 depends much more on the decision of the GM and not on a strict rule system.

But to be honest, all the different vectors and the different kind of toxins/pathogens combined with all the different defense systems (equipment, cyberware, nanoware, bioware) and immunization systems make it a little bit complicated.

SYL