Which Megacorp facilities are 'extraterritorial', What facilities in the megacorps asset list are 'extraterritoral&# Options

[Cthulhudreams]

It's becoming clear I have no idea how extraterritoriality in shadowrun is supposed to work. So I'm attempting to 'crowd souce' an answer.

Fire away guys.

I'd also love it if people like ancient history and other experts could toss their views into the hat.

[Fortune]

I probably would have cast my vote somewhere between 10% and 70% ... if there had been an option to do so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Earlydawn]

I'd just like to clarify my response to the final question - While I said one country gets the lion's share, I believe that each corp would pay to each locality. However, they more then likely structure it so most taxes are paid at their main headquarters, as they have the most vested interest there. Additionally, I also think they end up keeping a serious chunk.

[Cthulhudreams]

Please, if you feel that the answer is somewhere between 'branch' and 'regional' please state where it is in terms of facility size. I actually left that bracket out as a conscious decision because It wasn't clear to me what sort of facility demarcation you could make that would actually fall into the gap.

For example if distribution warehouses and factories are included, you're going to end up at the 70% mark. If they are not (and other business facilities of equal size are not) you're going to end up at the less than 20% mark.

I was initally going to leave the percentages out and just use the definitions, hence my lack of a definition lead to a lack of voting option. Sorry.

Edit: I can add poll choices, so please provide that definition!

[Fortune]

I don't think it has anything to do with size.

I think pretty much every AAA and AA research and manufacturing facility would be extraterritorial.
I would think most AAA and AA head offices and the like would be extraterritorial.
I think very few storefronts or normal warehouses would be considered extraterritorial.

Keep in mind that extraterritorial facilities have to be clearly marked as such by a Corporation that actually has that right. Holdings of those companies owned by AAA/AAs but not actually bearing their name will not be extraterritorial.

Also, on occasion it might be in a AAA/AA corporation's best interest not to advertise the presence of their super secret research facility by slapping a big extraterritorial sign on the outside.

[Cthulhudreams]

Why would you include factories and not distribution warehouses that will funnel way, way, way more product through them than a given factory? The warehouses just as sensitive a location in the supply chain for the vast majority of consumer products

Anyway, what about stuff like the internal consultancy cells, their accountancy etc

Lets look at an industry model then (Maybe I should have done this as the poll instead), which is what I think you are getting at:

Industry is comprised of 4 sectors:

The primary sector, largely raw material extraction industries such as mining and farming; <-- Extraterritorial

The secondary sector, involving refining and manufacturing; <-- Extraterritorial

The tertiary sector, which deals with services (such as law and medicine) and distribution of manufactured goods; <-- Okay this needs breakdown, because clearly half of it is and half of it isn't. Looking at the half that may be (so ignoring the distribution sector as 'not')

* Franchising <-- Not
* Restaurants <-- Not
* News media <-- Is
* Leisure industry/hotels <-- Not
* Consulting <-- Is
* Healthcare/hospitals <-- Is
* Waste disposal <-- Is
* Real estate <-- Maybe?
* Personal services <-- Is
* Business services <-- Is
* Utilities <-- Is

Quaternary sector, a relatively new type of industry focusing on technological research, design and development such as computer programming and biochemistry <-- Definitely Extraterritorial

So with that model, we arrive at the 70+% or so of the world economy is extraterritorial, based off looking at this wiki heatmap of GDPs, though I could probably do with some better numbers.

http://www.rba.gov.au/PublicationsAndResea...07_11_a_box.pdf

Edit: Using numbers for china gives me 72% of investment would be extraterritorial, assuming real estate is out (though some of that would be in), so thats not a bad first estimate. China is skewed towards secondary industry, but excluding real estate from below the line as well as above says that 84% of investment would be extraterritoral, giving my numbers some padding.

I feel better about the choices now.

[kzt]

Considering that the cops and fire department won't fight fires or investigate crimes on non-taxpaying extraterritorial sites....

[Fortune]

Cthulhudreams: I think your estimates are way too high.

[toturi]

Whether a facility is extra-territorial is explicitly stated in Corp Download. The decision whether to make the facility extra-territorial lies with each corp and the extenuating circumstances (ie the GM).

[WeaverMount]

The corps can do whatever they want. If they feel like being the only people who say what's what for a given patch of dirt they can. If they don't they can externalize the cost. If the site in question isn't worth good security they leave it to the state. So the stuffer shack store? Aztechnology doesn't care --> whatever protection the zone has. Multi billion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) nano fab? That's extraterritorial. The other factor besides security is control. Corp workers of all status will be housed in extraterritorial facilities. Ares doesn't want anyone to know what they do the grunts water supply. They need to control the info flow to the middle class. Proper care for executive involves "retention" polices that also require extraterritoriality.

[ornot]

I'd say most of a corps operations are extraterritorial, possibly somewhere around 70% or a little lower, although as has been pointed out, any smaller corporations they own indirectly will not be extraterritorial.

Where they have an extraterritorial complex, most of the staff will be housed and resident on site, so they won't have to pay taxes to a sovereign nation state. Where an employee commutes onto an extraterritorial holding to work, they will be taxed on their out of country earnings by their government. Of course, if Denver is anything to go by, taxes are often raised by a tariff on goods and services.

The megacorps themselves do not pay tax on their profit. Indeed, governments would have a hard time imposing pollution controls, employee abuse restrictions etc. on extraterritorial facilities. By this mechanism they maintain their own dominance and justify the costs of extraterritoriality to their shareholders.

[Cthulhudreams]

Cthulhudreams: I think your estimates are way too high.

Well, thats just proceeding with the assumption that all production facilities and locations that house knowledge workers will be extraterritorial. Different numbers can be produced by changing those assumptions. It's just that most facilities in the world fall into those categories ;P

I can see opinion is actually coming down on the side of 'corps don't pay tax' and but individuals is split, which is interesting.

[DocTaotsu]

I interpreted the "lions share" to mean that they keep more than half of their taxes (mostly because of all the tax write off a corps could demand from their gracious host nation). Not that they didn't pay taxes are at all. If a nation is getting only a fraction of a corps GDP that's still a fantastic amount of money.

[nezumi]

I agree with fortune. Probably around 40-70% of corporate property is extraterritorial, depending on the corp and area.

Extraterritoriality is primarily a function of security. You can safely assume that most everything which contains sensitive business information or processes will be protected by extraterritoriality. Same with most matrix hosts, and finally, anything big enough to support its own security team will likely be extraterritorial (so malls and the like oftentimes are). If the place is too small to support a security force, or fall under a nearby forces' umbrella, or is not plainly associated with the corp or is otherwise not worth worrying about, it probably isn't extraterritorial.

[vladski]

The way I see it, Corps don't pay taxes, perse. However, you better believe that they pay "fees" to the nation their bit of land resides in. It's like "rent."

Also, I would say that any goods that come out of factories that hit the marketplace are paying some form of tariff. Also, any goods bought in an Arcology... tax-free! But, you plan on walking out of that store with the goods onto the city streets? You are gonna pay an import fee. I would say this is handled in a booth right at hte doors of the place, possibly handled by the Corp itself and jsut turned right over to the UCAS.

As far as citizens... even if a citizen lives in an arcology, he's gonna be paying income tax in my world. If a citizen of the UCAS goes to work for a corp and lives in one of hteir facilities that is exterritorial, he's still a citizen of hte UCAS and has to pay taxes on income he earned. Check out Wesley Snipes 3 year conviction for refusing to pay taxes on income he earned out of hte USA. Now, if Renraku flies in some citizen from Japan to work in the Arcology, that guy pays no taxes (at least not to the UCAS) but, I would also say that his paperwork had better be in order when he leaves the building and enters the UCAS. Nothing major, but he had better have the equivilant of a Corp SIN AND a form of a VISA/Passport. I personally see them checking at the doors of the Arcology, much like entering and exiting a cruise ship in the Bahamas. It's routine, basic, low-level and it moves fast! But you are being checked every time.

The way I see it, this is all still great for hte Corp... they pay a flat fee to the nation they are residing in and they pass the rest of the taxation off on their employees and customers. Are a lot of things cheated on? Sure! Are goods frequently slippped over the "border" without duties and fees? Of course! But, that's no different than today. As long as the government is getting their cut, and the Corp is turning profit, everyone is pretty happy.

Vlad

[Zak]

Why would Renraku even employ an UCAS citizen? There is nothing in it for the corp.
So, if they get hired by Renraku (and not some company they own without ET status) they would also switch nationality from UCAS to Renraku.

And I do not see the AA / AAA corps paying any taxes at all. Canada does not pay taxes to the USA either (afaik). They may be paying for services provided for them by the surrounding nation, but the opposite will also happen.

[Sponge]

Here's how we view it: Only stuff that's directly owned by the AAA (not AA, from what I understand one of the major distinctions between AA and AAA is extra-territoriality) is extra-territorial. Anything that's owned by a subsidiary doesn't get that benefit. This means that generally, only major facilities will be extra-territorial.

Basically, if you are going to claim extra-territoriality for a particular piece of land, you'd better be able to back that up with force - because the local law enforcement is not going to lift a finger if something bad happens there. So for stuff that's not worth the investment of enough security to enforce the AAA's own laws, it's more efficient to spin it off as a subsidiary and let the local jurisdiction handle law enforcement (which is not to say they won't have security, it just won't be as much, and it may have a more restricted RoE).

DS

[Cthulhudreams]

Extraterritoriality is primarily a function of security. You can safely assume that most everything which contains sensitive business information or processes will be protected by extraterritoriality. Same with most matrix hosts, and finally, anything big enough to support its own security team will likely be extraterritorial (so malls and the like oftentimes are). If the place is too small to support a security force, or fall under a nearby forces' umbrella, or is not plainly associated with the corp or is otherwise not worth worrying about, it probably isn't extraterritorial.

What about something like a regional office of a major law or accounting firm. For example, clifford chance - once of the biggest law firms in the world has a tiny office (I'm pretty sure its less than 10 people) in australia to help them manage international deals.

So the office manages stuff that is unquestionably highly sensitive (for multibillion dollar deals), but is also too small to support a security force.

What happens then? It could go either way, but the way you come down on that decision is going to severely effect how many extraterritorial properties there are.

[vladski]

Why would Renraku even employ an UCAS citizen? There is nothing in it for the corp.
So, if they get hired by Renraku (and not some company they own without ET status) they would also switch nationality from UCAS to Renraku.

And I do not see the AA / AAA corps paying any taxes at all. Canada does not pay taxes to the USA either (afaik). They may be paying for services provided for them by the surrounding nation, but the opposite will also happen.

Why wouldn't they hire a UCAS citizen? They don't care if an employee wants to pay more taxes. It doesn't come out of their pocket. A Corp is still making jsut as much money via any fees it charges employees for living there. While it might make more sense fiscally for a citizen to renounce their UCAS citizenship (and I think it would be common and favored by the Corp), I can see some wishing not to do so. I would think the whole matter probably varies from Corp to Corp and from country to country. A UCAS Citizen is gonna be subject to all the rules/laws of the ET Corp while they are on their property, and I rarely see the Corp allowing UCAS to extradite a UCAS citizen while they are on their property... unless it's beneficial to the Corp. A UCAS citizen gets, for their taxes, (and little else) citizenship that allows them to flee the Corp should htey manage to make it out the door, without as much fear of hte Corp jsut requiring the hosting country to turn them right back over becasue they are cancelling their VISA. On the sidewalk, that UCAS citizen has rights, dammit! Inside the Corp enclave, hah!

As for the Corps paying some sort of flat tax on the land they are sitting on, to me it's the only way I see of making hte whole thing work fiscally. Same goes to fees, duties, and import/export taxes on goods sold in arcologies/ET Corp properties but hitting the streets. The corp might have ET status, but you'd better believe the country gives a hoot about (and wants their dime for) stuff coming into the country proper. Otherwise we run into the exact problems peopel are discussing in this thread. I don't see any country voluntarily giving up more than 2/3's of it's tax base without replacing it with something. By canon, the UCAS has a standing large military, complete with a modern navy and airforce. Those flat fees for leasing ET Corp land and the goods taxes would go a long way towards replacing that... without gouging into the Corps profits hardly at all. And, in the end, that standing army is good for the ET Corps as well. If a country is defending it's city, it's, by proxy, defending that Corp building sitting in it.

All of this is my opinion and the way my game is. YMMV, of course.

Vlad

[DocTaotsu]

You've also left off that the corps gets to sell the military to the host nation, it's always nice to get your money back.

[nezumi]

What about something like a regional office of a major law or accounting firm. For example, clifford chance - once of the biggest law firms in the world has a tiny office (I'm pretty sure its less than 10 people) in australia to help them manage international deals.

So the office manages stuff that is unquestionably highly sensitive (for multibillion dollar deals), but is also too small to support a security force.

What happens then? It could go either way, but the way you come down on that decision is going to severely effect how many extraterritorial properties there are.

Firstly, of course, there may be other influences worth mentioning here, and there's nothing stopping them from having a bit of extraterritorial land they give Lone Star permission (and money) to cover. However, all else being equal, I'd assume that they would firstly, try and position the office inside of or nearby another bit of their property. So the Renraku law office would be based inside the arcology, to save money on infrastructure.

Failing that, they would try and position it close by other resources. So the Ares law office may be next door to the Knight Errant office.

If they can't do THAT, what they'll likely do is claim extraterritoriality, then make a deal with a local security firm to provide security. The benefits here are:
1) They can use whatever matrix security they want, and prosecute anyone who intrudes based on their laws (and really, in a law firm, matrix security is probably the most important component.)
2) They can tell the local security forces that Seattle/UCAS law does not apply here - they may shoot on sight without provocation. They may use the toys they can't use in Seattle proper. They can pay for a Lone Star depot to be put up next door and have all the same powers as a corporate security force for less cost.
3) It provides more privacy and secrecy. Sure, Lone Star might be close to these sensitive files, but the case will never go to trial in the UCAS. If someone is caught, everything is handled in-house with Lone Star being the only outsider.

[kzt]

And when someone plays with matches the FD stands outside and makes sure it doesn't spread to somewhere important.

[Zak]

And when someone plays with matches the FD stands outside and makes sure it doesn't spread to somewhere important.

Well for that you have a contract with one of the local private Fire Fighting Companies.

[JudgementLoaf]

Frankly, I tend to look at this in more in the form of a corporate cost/benefit equation. Does the corp. have the potential of loosing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on the deal? If so, how much? The corp obviously will not care if a stuffer shack is robbed, as the financial loss will be totally meaningless in the grand scheme of things. So, its unlikely that the stuffer shack will be extraterritorial unless it happens to sit within a compound that is extraterritorial for another reason (such as an archology). Corporate HQ's, assembly plants, RnD labs and other similar sites have a lot more potential loss however, not to mention the fact that having the star or an outside security force present creates an easy entrance for espionage or theft. After all, if they were not hired and trained by the corp, who can say they meet the "honesty guidelines" set by the parent company? Furthermore, the corp is likely to jealously guard its captive markets. Any place they can present their products unmolested is very important. Likewise, any place they can draw personnel from (such as colleges, magical institution/groups, ect.) is probably under corporate "protection". However, the corps are not dumb. It is likely that the majority of these places will be crammed together on a very large plot of land to maximize corporate security effectiveness (as well as advertising (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ).

So, in short, I would look at the big picture. If the corporation in question stands to loose a substantial amount of resources by leaving it (it doesn't matter if the resources are personnel, magical or financial), they will protect it with their own people instead of leaving it open to the public.

[kzt]

Well for that you have a contract with one of the local private Fire Fighting Companies.

Good luck with that....

It requires just a bit more gear to do fire fighting than security, and you tend to need a lot more guys to do it with. Look in the yellow pages and count the number of private security firms. Then count the number of private fire fighting firms. There is a reason for this.