Improved Attribute adept power, Why is it so expensive? |
Improved Attribute adept power, Why is it so expensive? |
May 13 2008, 07:35 PM
Post
#1
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
I know it's petty, but it's a personal peeve of mine that Improved Physical Attribute costs a full magic point per point of attribute (the equivelant of 10 build points), two magic points (20 build points) if you are going higher than the starting maximum of 6+racial modifier. WHY? For muscle replacement you spend 5000 nuyen (the equivelant of 1 build point) and a point of essence. In exchange you get a point of Strength AND a point of Agility. For Muscle Toner or Muscle Augmentation biowear you spend a mere .2 Essence per rating and 8000/7000 nuyen, or the equivelant of 2 build points with money left over. If you later in the game aquire a suprathyroid gland, that costs you 45000 nuyen but boosts ALL YOUR PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES FOR A MEASLY .7 ESSENCE. That's equal to 9 build points and 1 point of magic for this uber-boost!
Did the developers actually not want anyone to ever take the Improved Physical Attribute power? Did they want all adepts to save up the cash and get a suprathyroid gland? This sucks! In fact, this sucks more than anything has ever sucked in the entire history of suck! Gawd himself must have been incredibly pleased when he created the perfect suck that is Improved Physical Attribute. |
|
|
May 13 2008, 07:45 PM
Post
#2
|
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Wow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I seem to recall people suggesting cutting the costs in half for that particular power. I imagine the current cost is part SR1-3 legacy and part "it has to cost more than improved ability for combat skills" |
|
|
May 13 2008, 07:46 PM
Post
#3
|
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Have you seen the errata about adept initiation?
|
|
|
May 13 2008, 07:53 PM
Post
#4
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 536 Joined: 25-January 08 From: Can I crash on your couch? Member No.: 15,483 |
I wonder why everything has to be balanced...
Sure, cyber and bio can more easily up stats, but adepts have a much easier time getting 13P with a punch and they can also max out their skills... And then there's the stuff adepts can do which cyber/bio dudes just can't... Is it expensive? Of course it is... You don't want to walk the path of training and insight? Get 'ware... It seems easy enough... |
|
|
May 13 2008, 07:55 PM
Post
#5
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
It has to be balanced because that is what RPG's are based on. If it wasn't balanced nobody would play the nerf archetypes. They'd all play the gawd archtypes.
|
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:00 PM
Post
#6
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 497 Joined: 16-April 08 From: Alexandria, VA Member No.: 15,900 |
|
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:01 PM
Post
#7
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
It has to be balanced because that is what RPG's are based on. If it wasn't balanced nobody would play the nerf archetypes. They'd all play the gawd archtypes. But you can't just isolate the one power and look for balance just there. As ArkonC is pointing out, take at all the other stuff an adept can do that a mundane can't. You have options that a mundane will never have. So, it costs a little more to get an extra point here or there, but take a look at everything else you have an opportunity to pick up that aren't available to a mundane at all. |
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:02 PM
Post
#8
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
|
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:03 PM
Post
#9
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 536 Joined: 25-January 08 From: Can I crash on your couch? Member No.: 15,483 |
It has to be balanced because that is what RPG's are based on. If it wasn't balanced nobody would play the nerf archetypes. They'd all play the gawd archtypes. No, balance is what CRPGs are based on... Elves have always been overpriced in SR, that doesn't stop people from playing them... In our games people take the less than optimal solution all the time because it fits the character better... There is a big difference between less than optimal (like improved attribute) and useless (like the astral sight advantage)... |
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:04 PM
Post
#10
|
|
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
why it is that expansive?
easy: no drawbacks whatsoever! no monetary cost, no essence cost, karma cost does not count because many things cost karma . . |
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:10 PM
Post
#11
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
But you can't just isolate the one power and look for balance just there. As ArkonC is pointing out, take at all the other stuff an adept can do that a mundane can't. You have options that a mundane will never have. So, it costs a little more to get an extra point here or there, but take a look at everything else you have an opportunity to pick up that aren't available to a mundane at all. And vice-versa. There are thins 'wear can do that magic never can. Before anyone says that an awakened dude could get 'wear, well, let's be serious, how many adepts are gonna sacrifice their power to get a cyberlimb or implant cyberguns? Besides, this is not about "magic dudes can get 'wear but mundanes can't get magic." It's about balance, which losing magic attribute points in echange for 'wear does this nicely. Improved physical attribute is wrong. When the developers made it they are (and until they fix it they still are) wrong. It's not just the Improved Physical Attribute, either. For instance, you could spend .5 magic points on two sense improvements...or get a rating 4 cybererye and get all of the eyemods! It doesn't end there, but most of them are all minor and ignorable as a "balancing magic against mundanes" thing. The Improved Physical Attribute, however, is a major one and completely unbalanced.! |
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:18 PM
Post
#12
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
why it is that expansive? easy: no drawbacks whatsoever! no monetary cost, no essence cost, karma cost does not count because many things cost karma . . Dude, we may be kindred spirit powergamers, but that's just not how I see it. They made Improved Reflexes, for example, exactly the same as Wired Reflexes, and Improved Reflexes also has no monetary cost or essence cost. They made freaking move-by-wire the same essence cost, for crying out loud. Granted MBW is mucho expensive, but look at what you get for it. Mundanes can even get alphawear to make their mods cost less essence. The magic points spent to get them are not proportionate in build point cost to get the money for the mundane augmentations. But I digress. Improved Physical Attribute is still WRONG! |
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:20 PM
Post
#13
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,162 Joined: 16-November 07 Member No.: 14,229 |
I'm okay that some things just cost less. I'm also okay with some things being able to do stuff that other stuff can't. Heck, I'm okay with the things that let you seriously twink out a character being expensive. But, seriously, there are some options that are just absurdly overpriced for what you get...
Photographic Memory quality (10 BP) vs. Eidetic Sense Memory (.5 Magic, 5 BP) vs. rating 1 Cybereyes (waaaay less than 1 BP) with Image Link and Recorder (both free). Uh... yeah. -paws |
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:24 PM
Post
#14
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 |
Many Adept abilities are overpriced, but not enough to make them obsolete (for most, anyways). However, I agree that Improved Attribute is by far the worst Adept power to take.
My personal suggestion, alter it so it increases your augmented attribute, not natural, and costs a fixed 1 point per level. On a side note, I do not see why power costs only come in .25, .5, and whole numbers. I think they should have a more varied cost, similar to essence costs, simply because it makes sense. It also would have the added benefit of being able to make some of the lesser abilities worth taking at lower costs. I will eventually get around to redoing the power costs in this manner... |
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:27 PM
Post
#15
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
True, Musp, but WHY did they nerf I.P.A. so much that it is naught but a festering pile of steaming suck? Why have they not changed this with erratta? Why do they choose to be wrong?
|
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:29 PM
Post
#16
|
|
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
Dude, we may be kindred spirit powergamers, but that's just not how I see it. They made Improved Reflexes, for example, exactly the same as Wired Reflexes, and Improved Reflexes also has no monetary cost or essence cost. They made freaking move-by-wire the same essence cost, for crying out loud. Granted MBW is mucho expensive, but look at what you get for it. Mundanes can even get alphawear to make their mods cost less essence. The magic points spent to get them are not proportionate in build point cost to get the money for the mundane augmentations. But I digress. Improved Physical Attribute is still WRONG! i have a bumper-sticker on one of my cyber/bio-combat-monster-trolls: HONK IF YOU HATE MAGIC! *gg* you try being the one mundane Troll in a group of 4 to 6 magically active elves . . as of that occassion, i don't see anything wrong with magical redshirts having to pay out of their noses for it |
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:37 PM
Post
#17
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
Stahlseele, have I got the link for you.
|
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:49 PM
Post
#18
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I'm still curious about the Adept initiation Errata.
|
|
|
May 13 2008, 08:55 PM
Post
#19
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 19-March 08 Member No.: 15,793 |
For an adept to get an improved attribute....
1 level of Improved Attribute: 1 Magic Point That translates to 10BP, plus you've used up a Magic point. You get +1 to an attribute... usually used for STR or AGIL in combat 1 level of muscle replacement: 5,000nY + 1Essence That translates to 1BP, plus you've lost a Magic point to essence loss. You get +1 STR, +1 AGIL (that's +2 attribute points) 9 BP cheaper to get an extra attribute boost? Ummmm.... Yeah. If anyone comes up with a balanced set of houseruled point costs for adept powers, please let me know. Nobody will play Adepts in my group because they can get way more from cyber... not the -same- stuff sometimes, but more bang for the BP, and much more choice as well. |
|
|
May 13 2008, 09:21 PM
Post
#20
|
|
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
technically you have to buy up your magic first to lose it again due to implant or did i understand that wrong somehow? . .
so the bp cost for the muscle stuff should include the cost for the magic attribute point you just lost . . not so much cheaper anymore neh? O.o |
|
|
May 13 2008, 09:40 PM
Post
#21
|
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Of course RPGs should balance. Real life is balanced, isn't it?
Seriously, real life really is balanced, just not always in the middle. You want to add to your attribute rating? There are plenty of ways to make that happen, and some methods are better at increasing an attribute rating than others. |
|
|
May 13 2008, 09:44 PM
Post
#22
|
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Find me some 'ware that lets me get up to 6 extra levels of damage on a hand-to-hand attack.
Find me some 'ware that lets me add up to 6 extra dice to a firearms attack AND stacks with Smartlink. Find me some 'ware that lets my hands light on fire like I'd doused them in napalm, but never affects me or my stuff. Find me some 'ware that lets me buy a weapon that adds extra dice and lets me smack spirits around like a punch. And lastly... Find me some 'ware that lets me Center vs. Penalties. Yeah, Improved Attribute costs a lot. Why? Because adepts can still get 'ware. Because adepts can do some things better than others. And because they have 2 roads of improvement open to them, and the rest of us only have one. |
|
|
May 13 2008, 10:20 PM
Post
#23
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: 12-March 08 Member No.: 15,766 |
Buy magic to 5, take the 1 point you would have spent on Improved attribute and instead get +2 str +2 agility with muscle aug and muscle toner for .8 essence and 30,000 nuyen. This translates to 10+6 for 16 bp, for the equivalent of 40 bp of improved attribute. You also have enough essence left over for some cyber eyes, or whatever.
Throw 50 bp at essence, and you could buy 160,000 nuyen worth of bioware reflexes for 1 essence, too, and have 3 IP and all your magic left, too, except 1, but this is getting costly. =) |
|
|
May 13 2008, 10:38 PM
Post
#24
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 |
Adept powers cost more than their augmentation equivalents. This is how it should be, to help account for the ability to take both, the reduced limit of essence from initiation, and the lack of Nuyen costs. However, power costs should be low enough to remain viable (outside of pure character concept) choices when compared to augmentatoin. Most Adept powers are fairly good at this, some need a few minor adjustments (such as Increased Reflexes), and some are way the fuck off in costs (Improved Attribute).
If you do not want to compare power to augmentation, try power to power. Improved Attribute (Reaction) vs. Increased Reflexes. At below-natural maximums, Improved is indeed better if the only thing you are going for is Reaction. Roughly equal once you take into account IP. However, as Improved also increases the karma cost for advancement, below natural maximum is the worst time to take it. Now look at above natural maximum; Increased Reflexes gives the same boost to Reaction for less, and gives additional passes. Improved Attribute is obviously the worse of the two, and I personally believe Increased Reflexes is still slightly overpriced. |
|
|
May 13 2008, 10:58 PM
Post
#25
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,653 Joined: 22-January 08 Member No.: 15,430 |
Don't stack up cyber augmentations against adept powers and demand equality. Samurai and physads are not separate character classes where one must be just as good as each other. There are no character classes in SR. If cyberware is a more efficient route to raising physical attributes, use it, don't complain about it, just use it. If you don't want to, that's your own choice. Not a system flaw.
I think the rationale for the Adept power being so expensive is that, in the most basic terms, sammies are about starting out really strong without a lot of easy improvement, and adepts are about starting out weak with a much higher potential. It's easy for a samurai to raise attributes to a point, but beyond that they're stuck. Adepts can keep piling on the bonuses, in some cases indefinitely, it just takes a long time for them to equal and exceed the samurai. But what it really comes down to is that sammies are good at some things, adepts are good at others, so the scariest characters will combine the two archetypes, gaining the best of both worlds. If sammies and adepts were equal in all ways, there would be no best of both worlds, it would be the same all around, it would be boring and sucky. Is that what you want? I thought so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 17th April 2024 - 11:33 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.