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> Technomancy, What do you think?
Reaver
post Dec 12 2003, 07:19 PM
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Ok. I don't know if I have posted this before, but I want to give it a spin and see what people think. I DON"T want a flame war. Constructive criticism is fine, but your should be backing your point and not just saying NO. ;)

If you are a GM, your feedback would be greatly appreciated. Anyway, go to the link and let me know. :D

Technonomicon

>Scott
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Backgammon
post Dec 12 2003, 07:31 PM
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I don't have time to read a book right now. What's the resume? Anchoring spells to objects so they can be used by anyone?
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Reaver
post Dec 12 2003, 07:38 PM
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QUOTE (Backgammon)
I don't have time to read a book right now. What's the resume? Anchoring spells to objects so they can be used by anyone?

Pretty much. I used the original anchoring rules from 2nd ed. when I created it. Of course it was still 2nd ed. when I started the project. :)

>Scott
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Backgammon
post Dec 12 2003, 07:43 PM
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Sounds like a bad idea. Too many worms in that can. Perpetual energy, devastating weapons... My friend who GMs sometime had it in his world that the drain from anchoring could be transfered to a mundane user, but even that had it's issues.
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Reaver
post Dec 12 2003, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (Backgammon)
Sounds like a bad idea. Too many worms in that can. Perpetual energy, devastating weapons... My friend who GMs sometime had it in his world that the drain from anchoring could be transfered to a mundane user, but even that had it's issues.

The way I tried to balance it is thus;

At the culmination of the casting, the caster must wound himself with a knife, inflicting 1 block of physical damage per point of force cast into the item. This is commonly referred to as the ‘Sacrifice.’ Items chaining more than one spell together are created one spell at a time, with no more than 28 days elapsing between each casting. The mage can ‘resist’ the damage, but no armor OR magical protection applies. Also, the wound cannot be staged down lower than 1/4 of the spells total force rating. Note that bonus force points from reusable and expendable fetishes do not apply for the force calculation (also for learning exclusively). The wound created by the ritual can only heal by normal means and requires the maximum healing time to heal. After resisting the damage, apply drain as per the standard rules.

That way you can't make exytremely powerful items without one hell of a ritual team. It also prevents mages from cranking them out one right after the other.
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IcyCool
post Dec 12 2003, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (Reaver)
The way I tried to balance it is thus;

At the culmination of the casting, the caster must wound himself with a knife, inflicting 1 block of physical damage per point of force cast into the item.  This is commonly referred to as the ‘Sacrifice.’  Items chaining more than one spell together are created one spell at a time, with no more than 28 days elapsing between each casting. The mage can ‘resist’ the damage, but no armor OR magical protection applies. Also, the wound cannot be staged down lower than 1/4 of the spells total force rating. Note that bonus force points from reusable and expendable fetishes do not apply for the force calculation (also for learning exclusively). The wound created by the ritual can only heal by normal means and requires the maximum healing time to heal.  After resisting the damage, apply drain as per the standard rules.

  That way you can't make exytremely powerful items without one hell of a ritual team.  It also prevents mages from cranking them out one right after the other.


But that's not really a sacrifice, is it. If you were to treat the sacrifice as giving up one box on the condition monitor (as per Doom), or a magic point (as per creating an ally), which could only be regained through the destruction or disenchantment of the item, then you're getting closer to a sacrifice.
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Reaver
post Dec 12 2003, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (IcyCool)
QUOTE (Reaver)
The way I tried to balance it is thus;

At the culmination of the casting, the caster must wound himself with a knife, inflicting 1 block of physical damage per point of force cast into the item.  This is commonly referred to as the ‘Sacrifice.’  Items chaining more than one spell together are created one spell at a time, with no more than 28 days elapsing between each casting. The mage can ‘resist’ the damage, but no armor OR magical protection applies. Also, the wound cannot be staged down lower than 1/4 of the spells total force rating. Note that bonus force points from reusable and expendable fetishes do not apply for the force calculation (also for learning exclusively). The wound created by the ritual can only heal by normal means and requires the maximum healing time to heal.  After resisting the damage, apply drain as per the standard rules.

  That way you can't make exytremely powerful items without one hell of a ritual team.  It also prevents mages from cranking them out one right after the other.


But that's not really a sacrifice, is it. If you were to treat the sacrifice as giving up one box on the condition monitor (as per Doom), or a magic point (as per creating an ally), which could only be regained through the destruction or disenchantment of the item, then you're getting closer to a sacrifice.

It is a sacrifice. The mage is sacrificing his life's blood in the spell casting. Just depends on your definition of sacrifice. Not to mention the sacrifice in terms of time in creating, casting and healing.
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Saintgrimm
post Dec 12 2003, 08:12 PM
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I think Icy's point was that it's not that much of a sacrifice if you have downtime. Sometimes Runners can be lucky to get one or two runs a month. Some don't want more. A good run might keep you set for a couple months. Thats a good amount of downtime in which to make something that can be used without limit.

"Sure team, wait up a little while and I'll be throwing Force 6 Manabolts without any drain."

A sacrifice, in the terms you are speaking is like a ritual sacrifice to the Gods, and is fine and well, but not enough if you ask me.

I'd go further into detail, but I am afraid that I must run off to do some errands. But when I come back, I'll see what I can find for you in the way of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Hehe





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Reaver
post Dec 12 2003, 08:31 PM
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QUOTE (Saintgrimm)
I think Icy's point was that it's not that much of a sacrifice if you have downtime. Sometimes Runners can be lucky to get one or two runs a month. Some don't want more. A good run might keep you set for a couple months. Thats a good amount of downtime in which to make something that can be used without limit.

"Sure team, wait up a little while and I'll be throwing Force 6 Manabolts without any drain."

A sacrifice, in the terms you are speaking is like a ritual sacrifice to the Gods, and is fine and well, but not enough if you ask me.

I'd go further into detail, but I am afraid that I must run off to do some errands. But when I come back, I'll see what I can find for you in the way of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Hehe

A good point, but that's where the GM is supposed to keep balance as well. I don't leave my players with a lot of time if they have a lot of money... and vice versa. Right now they've been making pretty good money, so they are lucky if they've gotten more than a few weeks between runs. Even standard enchanting can be abused if you allow the players enough of both time and money. :)

Also, in the items design, the GM can require the technomagic item to require some kind of expendable material to balance the function. Throwing force 6 manabolts all day long is no longer a great idea if it costs you 100+¥ per mana bolt.

You're right about more detail, that's one of the reasons for the post. I need to see where I should elaborate and clear things up. :oops:

>Scott
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Spookymonster
post Dec 12 2003, 09:05 PM
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Or maybe a sacrifice of Magic points, like Bio and Cyber penalties?

Off the top of my head:

Start with an Anchoring Focus. Pay cash and karma as normal. Then build up from there.

Every point of Force imbued into the item results in a -.1 Magic point penalty. Particularly nasty or potentially unbalancing classes of spells can have additional modifiers:
Combat = * -.2
Healing = * -.4

Additional modifiers can apply:
spell can only be used once a week = -.1
once a day = -.3
three times a day = -.9

Creator must specify how the item is recharged:
hourly = -.3
at dawn = -/+0
only recharges under a full moon = +.3
blood of a virgin elf maiden (not the creator) = +.8

Total up the penalty and apply to creator's Magic rating (with the rating being rounded down to the nearest integer, as usual). Magic points lost this way cannot be regained with Geasa.

If the item is ever destroyed, the points are lost permanently, plus the creator must make an immediate drain check against every spell contained in the focus (apply drain to Physical instead of Stun?).

Creator of the item gets an additional +1 TN penalty on all magical tests against someone possessing one of their crafted items. Initiates with Masking can use the item to alter their astral signatures to match the creator's perfectly.

The creator of the item only takes drain if the spell fumbles (or when the item is destroyed, as per above).

Needless to say, you wouldn't want this to fall into the hands of a Ritual magician with a grudge against you.

OK... flame on.
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Req
post Dec 12 2003, 09:10 PM
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Lasts a year and a day? Is this an Earthdawn reference?
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The Cheshire Pen...
post Dec 12 2003, 09:12 PM
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This gets into the whole 'what can magic NOT do?' question. Permanently anchored spells I don't have a problem with when they follow the rules of the game. I would allow a person to make a weapon with a quickened, anchored firebolt that a mundane could use. The problem is with any quickened spell: it's karmically expensive; it can be attacked in astral space and destroyed; if it's anchored and attacked, it has a chance of just being 'released' into the immediate area (I think those are the rules... I don't have MitS in front of me). Add to that the problem of having ANY permanently enchanted item, that is, it's a big astral magnet for all kinds of -things-, and your weapon of death is almost as dangerous to you as it is to others. The weapon would also probably be dual-natured, wouldn't it? Even more fun!
Blood magic, while it may help the caster resist the drain, won't help with any of the -real- problems with permanently anchored spells. In fact, it may even attract MORE attention to the thing. Not to mention the fact that Blood Magic is only really in common use in Aztlan, illegal in the rest of the world, and a dangerous thing to give any PC, IMHO.

Take out the blood magic, and you've got a fairly balanced magical weapon. But I wouldn't want to use it :evil:
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Reaver
post Dec 12 2003, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (Req)
Lasts a year and a day? Is this an Earthdawn reference?

Very much an Eartdawn reference. ;)
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kevyn668
post Dec 12 2003, 09:39 PM
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Sounds like the Techno-Mage from Rifts....(sigh)

I'm not a very experienced GM but I don't think I'd allow this IGM. At least in its current form. I didn't read your whole article but I didn't see any game mechanics in there.

As for the "1 box per level"....well, 1) sounds a hell of a lot like blood magic and you use the word "sacifice" which is quickly going to lead to someone (-people) giving up the box per point--not the enchanting mage and 2) doesn't seem to equal the power that an item could produce. "The force 10 manabolt blaster, sure it costs 1000 :nuyen: per round but boy it sure does pack a whollup!!"

I don't like the idea of "cost" being the factor that makes runners use something sparingly. Either they have it and burn it (ammo) or they don't and won't get it (panzer) or at least won't get to keep it. ;)

Now your ideas has some uses in the NPC field.... :vegm:

"You'd like to reverse engineer the force 10 manabolt blaster? Hmmm, unfortunately, it was lost w/ the evil blood mage's body when her spirit went free and trashed the place."

"Her notes? Hmmm, unfortunately the notes were destroyed when..."

I think I like Spookymonster's idea, if I'm understanding it right. It should be built like a focus/fetish/etc and it should cost karma. A BOAT LOAD of karma. Literaly. More than that power/weapon focus the munchkin nextdoor has. That might convince me.

Mages have enough ways to spend karma this could be one more way to make them focus (no pun intended).

"Are you saving for that next initiant grade? Big ass power or weapon focus? Ally spirit? OR the Force 10 manabolt blaster?" :P
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Reaver
post Dec 12 2003, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE (The Cheshire Penguin)
This gets into the whole 'what can magic NOT do?' question. Permanently anchored spells I don't have a problem with when they follow the rules of the game. I would allow a person to make a weapon with a quickened, anchored firebolt that a mundane could use. The problem is with any quickened spell: it's karmically expensive; it can be attacked in astral space and destroyed; if it's anchored and attacked, it has a chance of just being 'released' into the immediate area (I think those are the rules... I don't have MitS in front of me). Add to that the problem of having ANY permanently enchanted item, that is, it's a big astral magnet for all kinds of -things-, and your weapon of death is almost as dangerous to you as it is to others. The weapon would also probably be dual-natured, wouldn't it? Even more fun!
Blood magic, while it may help the caster resist the drain, won't help with any of the -real- problems with permanently anchored spells. In fact, it may even attract MORE attention to the thing. Not to mention the fact that Blood Magic is only really in common use in Aztlan, illegal in the rest of the world, and a dangerous thing to give any PC, IMHO.

Take out the blood magic, and you've got a fairly balanced magical weapon. But I wouldn't want to use it :evil:

I agree with you on all your points in regards to the magic item. Yes it is expensive, both karmically and in nuyen. Yes, it can be mucked with in the astral. Yes it can attract attention. All those points are things that would balance what you can do with the skill and any item you create. Or, it requires ways to keep them from being so harmed.

Oh, and since these items would be rare, it will attract mundane attention as well. What shadowy person wouldn't want a wiz technomagic item? :D

The blood magic talent in question is not full blood magic. The talent in technomancy can ONLY be used by the mage on himself. The casting mage cannot use a donor. I idea behind using a modified blood magic talent was to slow the process of someone wanting to make 4 billion items within a month time frame. By having natural healing time thrown into the mix, it helps slow the mage down on the enchanting process.

>Scott
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Reaver
post Dec 12 2003, 10:02 PM
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QUOTE (kevyn668)
Sounds like the Techno-Mage from Rifts....(sigh)

I'm not a very experienced GM but I don't think I'd allow this IGM. At least in its current form. I didn't read your whole article but I didn't see any game mechanics in there.

As for the "1 box per level"....well, 1) sounds a hell of a lot like blood magic and you use the word "sacifice" which is quickly going to lead to someone (-people) giving up the box per point--not the enchanting mage and 2) doesn't seem to equal the power that an item could produce. "The force 10 manabolt blaster, sure it costs 1000 :nuyen: per round but boy it sure does pack a whollup!!"

I don't like the idea of "cost" being the factor that makes runners use something sparingly. Either they have it and burn it (ammo) or they don't and won't get it (panzer) or at least won't get to keep it. ;)

Now your ideas has some uses in the NPC field.... :vegm:

"You'd like to reverse engineer the force 10 manabolt blaster? Hmmm, unfortunately, it was lost w/ the evil blood mage's body when her spirit went free and trashed the place."

"Her notes? Hmmm, unfortunately the notes were destroyed when..."

I think I like Spookymonster's idea, if I'm understanding it right. It should be built like a focus/fetish/etc and it should cost karma. A BOAT LOAD of karma. Literaly. More than that power/weapon focus the munchkin nextdoor has. That might convince me.

Mages have enough ways to spend karma this could be one more way to make them focus (no pun intended).

"Are you saving for that next initiant grade? Big ass power or weapon focus? Ally spirit? OR the Force 10 manabolt blaster?" :P

Gah! No technomage from Rifts thank you very much. ;)

The main idea behind this was two fold. Number one, it fits the idea in Big D's will of a magical item that could be used by a mundane. Number two, it provides someone with a way to make something that could not easily be made with tech itself. It is supposed to be a fusion of BOTH magic and technology. So, while it should provide an edge, it shouldn't be an unfair balance.

As to the force 10 manablaster. If the enchanter survives the casting and drain, he is still going to have a Moderate wound that he has to let naturally heal. That's going to suck if he has to do a run tomorrow night. Frankly, it's not much different if the character made a force 10 weapon focus. But that's where the GM comes in and makes sure it stay's balanced.

The game mechanics were at the bottom of the write up.
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Reaver
post Dec 13 2003, 05:59 AM
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Oh, also, the reason I used anchoring as the driving skill to create technomagic items was to prevent karma cost reduction through enchanting. That way it does cost lots of karma to create an item.
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Sahandrian
post Dec 13 2003, 07:10 AM
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The best use for a better long-term anchoring ability I can think of would be to create the "Caster" gun from Outlaw Star.

I think I'll go do that now.
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Lilt
post Dec 13 2003, 12:58 PM
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Have you considered what people might do if they ever figure out how to summon/control the imp spirits described in Threats 2?
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Connor
post Dec 13 2003, 06:14 PM
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Considering Ehran's reaction to the imp spirits, I don't nessecarily think it's something that I'd let anyone from the 6th world be able to handle...
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Reaver
post Dec 13 2003, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (Connor)
Considering Ehran's reaction to the imp spirits, I don't nessecarily think it's something that I'd let anyone from the 6th world be able to handle...

I don't even want to think of that can of worms. ;)
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Fahr
post Dec 15 2003, 04:57 PM
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I like the caster gun Idea above, mainly cause the user of the gun suffered drain (if you've seen outlaw star you know what I mean) whenever he used it.

Enchanted magic bullets, drain for user, extreme cost. mundane can use it, but was rarely used cause of the scarcity of ammo, and the nasty drain.

-Mike R.
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Reaver
post Dec 16 2003, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE (Fahr)
I like the caster gun Idea above, mainly cause the user of the gun suffered drain (if you've seen outlaw star you know what I mean) whenever he used it.

Enchanted magic bullets, drain for user, extreme cost. mundane can use it, but was rarely used cause of the scarcity of ammo, and the nasty drain.

-Mike R.

I can understand that, but I wanted to provide a way to make it more like a quickened anchoring. Having to take drain every time someone used it would be on the borders edge of insanity. Why would anyone bother. Frankly, that's the one thing I hated about the changes they made with anchorings in 3rd ed. It practically doesn't make anchoring worth doing. That's why I stuck to the second ed. rules instead.
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