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> Explosives, Who uses then for what purpose?
Marduc
post May 14 2008, 08:52 PM
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I was thinking about something I saw on a discovery program. There they used a bag full of explosives and a copper plate to rip a hole in an armored car, which was riding past, killing only one person, the intended target, in an entire convoy.

The plate was something like 25x25x3 cm massing around 17 kg and an bag of explosives, say TNT or HMX (Better) with the dimensions 25x25x15 cm massing around 15 kg for TNT or 17 kg for HMX.

When the bag exploded, the plate was expelled and hit the car with a total force similar to 6 tonne (tonne = 1000 kg) for TNT or 7.8 tonne for HMX. The copper plate shredded the car and killed the target instantiously. (time 3.3 ms)

How would you stat this to shadowrun?

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Stahlseele
post May 14 2008, 10:29 PM
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that's a shaped charge . . they did not really use the copper plate, they used the copper spear that happens to come into existance once you explode it fast enough i would think O.o
if they really used the whole plate then it was kind of a miracle that it did not ricochet off of anything x.x
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Daier Mune
post May 14 2008, 10:37 PM
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whats crazy is the water-based shaped charges. i've seen devices big enough to take out cars, and compact enough to breach doors. virtually no colateral damage, just dampness.
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CanRay
post May 14 2008, 10:38 PM
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A high Demolitions roll, using plans based off of technology that's been around since WWII. Doing damage based upon the materials available, and what they're aiming for the target.

Personally, I think the same people (If I'm thinking the same Discovery show) went a little too high-tech with the detonator, but I'm of the KISS group when it comes to Demo work, having come from a mining town.
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Shiloh
post May 14 2008, 10:56 PM
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We're planning to stop a convoy by blowing a crater in the road to trap the limo and ramming the security cars with rigged stolen vehicles with AT mines gaffered to the front...
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Siege
post May 14 2008, 11:02 PM
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You're talking about EFPs or "Explosively Formed Penetrator" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator

An amazingly simple, yet brutally effective means of defeating armored vehicles.

@Shiloh - you might have better luck with drones. Cheaper, more maneuverable and just as effective. Depending on what you need to do with the limo, massive craters and VBIEDs might complicate matters.

That's an interesting notion - airborne drones with internal shaped charges and grapplers to lock onto targets...

-Siege
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CanRay
post May 14 2008, 11:05 PM
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Well, I can speak from personal experience that a transport truck trailer full of mining explosives, which was also illegally hauling blasting caps, can put a crater in the ground deep enough to swallow a Limo, with some space left over for a few sub-compacts.

It will also vaporize said truck, save for the front axel, which will be found quite a few miles away. Or, slightly less in an urban enviroment, where there's things like buildings it'll have to go through.
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Siege
post May 14 2008, 11:11 PM
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To say nothing of anything within close proximity to the blast radius.

Close being measured in city blocks.

-Siege
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kzt
post May 14 2008, 11:11 PM
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It's most likely a platter charge (aka EFP or SFF) not a shaped charge. These require skill in explosives and skill in machining the parts to make them work really well. Just like shaped charges, it's easy to make a primitive one, it requires research, skill, experimentation and gear to make ones that really perform optimally.

Explosives are hard to do well in a game. It's a complex area, detailed data is difficult to obtain due to restrictions and people who know how stuff really works tend to not talk about it.

I have been told that people who are really good can do some amazing crap with explosives and achieve exactly what they want with minimal secondary destruction, and on the other hand, if you don't know what you are doing you can use huge amounts of explosive and not accomplish your aim while blowing up everything around it.
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CanRay
post May 14 2008, 11:13 PM
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I can state for the record that there are people that WELD with explosives.

I have no idea how they do it, and, frankly, don't want to know.
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Fix-it
post May 14 2008, 11:26 PM
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This page (LINK) is a nice intro to explosion welding, the wikipedia page(LINK) on it is kinda sparse.

that said, I prefer thermite welding.
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WearzManySkins
post May 14 2008, 11:51 PM
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Well Port Chicago Naval Magazine in Port Chicago, Ca circa July 17, 1944, the SS Grandcamp in Texas City, Texas circa April 16th 1947. Really big explosions.

@Shiloh
Why the road why not take down some very large trees to fall across the roadway or telephone poles, with claymores along side.

Take out a bridges support columns. Many wondrous uses explosives have.

WMS
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Marduc
post May 15 2008, 04:54 AM
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The charge wasn't placed on the car but in a backpack, which was sitting on the baggage carrier of a bike. The explosives 'fired' a copper plate across the street where the target car was driving past.
The plate was fired with a speed of at least 5100m/s (for TNT) (for HMX this speed would be 9100m/s)
In km/h 18360 and 32760.
This way one would get a high velocity projectile (doesn't have to be speas shaped) which has to travel up to 30 m, thus having a very large part of its kinetic energy left when it hits the car with either 42882.84 N or 76516.44 N.
Thus the car is hit with a blow of several metric tonns worth energy.
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bclements
post May 15 2008, 06:25 AM
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QUOTE (Fix-it @ May 14 2008, 06:26 PM) *
This page (LINK) is a nice intro to explosion welding, the wikipedia page(LINK) on it is kinda sparse.

that said, I prefer thermite welding.

Having actually seen explosive welding done (my uncle was a 20 year veteran welder doing QA inspections on it; I snuck away as a vo-tech welder; and by seen, it's on a video screen until the parts come back) its more like plate stamping in a machine shop than anything. Really good welds, but like most other hi-tech welding, you've got to know what you're doing before mating the parts together.
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Kliko
post May 15 2008, 07:37 AM
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For inspiration purposes check what the Cosa Nostra did to judge Falcone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Falcone

That ought to do it, fairly low tech for SR standards though
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hobgoblin
post May 15 2008, 09:22 AM
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sometimes the SR ways can be over-engineered, to the point of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg_device
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Shiloh
post May 15 2008, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE (Siege @ May 15 2008, 12:02 AM) *
@Shiloh - you might have better luck with drones. Cheaper, more maneuverable and just as effective. Depending on what you need to do with the limo, massive craters and VBIEDs might complicate matters.

We're operating out of our home ground with limited contacts and time. I can boost pretty much any cheap auto and we should be able to get the rigger controls and install them relatively easily in the time frame allowed. Snagging drones might draw undue attention, and the ones we anticipate suborning during the attack itself are earmarked for the turbine nacelles of the dust-off unit that we know will get called in. We might be able to get light drones in time, but they've got to be able to catch relatively agile cars and carry enough payload to total well-built executive protection escort sedans. I know we can do it with a small urbancar and an AT-mine, and I'm pretty sure we can get the mines in time; we may even have the explosives to improvise them amongst the group's resources.

The limo is heavily armed (GLs, LMGs and autoshotguns) impenetrable except with explosives (which would likely kill our extraction subject) or cutting gear (probably too slow - killing the dust-off is a secondary position that would probably get other agencies involved). So we want it static while our hacker gets the doors open or we can place contact cutting charges to can-open it with precision.

QUOTE (wearzmanyskins)
Why the road why not take down some very large trees to fall across the roadway or telephone poles, with claymores along side.

Take out a bridges support columns. Many wondrous uses explosives have.

Good suggestions all. The road is in the Redmond Barrens, so no trees, and we get the impression that barricades less than a building-slide (which we've considered) will hardly slow this convoy down. Don't think we have enough control over the positioning of the target vehicles to get three mobile targets into a (or a set of) killzones with any reliability at all. The problem is that the three elements could be at virtually any spacing and we need to thoroughly neutralise the escort vehicles because they are armed enough to spoil our day even without the contribution of the personnel they're carrying.

We reckon blowing a hole in the road (we can drill charges into the roadbed ahead of time) and letting the limo drop into it, then dealing with the mobile assets with kamikaze remote-control cars is probably our best shot at gaining control of the situation. The subject might be a bit shaken up, but we're relying on the passenger-protection measures being good enough and the rigger driving the limo being pretty good, but constrained by physics to only slowing the speed of the impact. Even uprated brakes are going to have a hard time stopping an armoured limo. Also means we can fill the hole with smoke to sytmie any return fire from the vehicle or the mage. Another thing that makes road-cratering attractive is that there is a large sewer under the road to help. It has to be a *big* hole though, so the rigger can't drive round it.
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Siege
post May 15 2008, 03:36 PM
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Just some brainstorming:

Light and agile vehicles still have to stay relatively close to the primary which limits their mobility. A drone need not carry enough C-12 to stomp a tank - kill a tire and the escort is dead in the water. A cheap auto boosted may not be as agile as you need to intercept these escorts, assuming they don't get killed en route.

Any heavy weapons? A dust-off unit without escort is a giant, expensive and usually dead target - especially in an urban environment.

A minor obstacle that forces the convoy to a specific detour, even for seconds, gives you operational control for timing an attack.

-Siege
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Shiloh
post May 15 2008, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (Siege @ May 15 2008, 04:36 PM) *
Just some brainstorming:

Light and agile vehicles still have to stay relatively close to the primary which limits their mobility. A drone need not carry enough C-12 to stomp a tank - kill a tire and the escort is dead in the water.


A good point. If we could determine the sort of reaction we might get to "random tyre loss", we might be able to fake an ambush (I think the force required to fake a blowout on smart tyres might be hard to disguise as "accident") that means one element gets left behind, and we bounce the remaining two shortly thereafter. I think the dustoff vehicle would get called out to pick up the stragglers though, and that would bring them closer to us sooner than we'd perhaps like. Given that we are outnumbered 3 to 1 and the target has combat drones and armed armoured vehicles my instinct is to go for brutal overkill on the escort vehicles because we can't on the subject's vehicle.

QUOTE
A cheap auto boosted may not be as agile as you need to intercept these escorts, assuming they don't get killed en route.

The plan is to use them while the escort vehicles are maneuvering in response to the landmine and crash. If the escorts stand off to provide fire support to the stricken limo, the kamikazes don't have to reach them; the pillar of fire will screw vision mods for what's happening at the crater...

QUOTE
Any heavy weapons?


No, nor the skills to use them, other than thrown grenades and demolitions.

QUOTE
A dust-off unit without escort is a giant, expensive and usually dead target - especially in an urban environment.


We're told this one will have at least one chain gun and rocket pods. It's bound to have ECM and decoys. We do have the chance to hack a couple of combat drones though. Killing a privately owned (as opposed to mega-corp or governmental) VTOL is likely to bring a deal of heat we don't want, I'd guess.

QUOTE
A minor obstacle that forces the convoy to a specific detour, even for seconds, gives you operational control for timing an attack.


A good point. We could look into forcing the principal to detour and the pursuit cars to scramble round trying to find a way to it. We only have 2 minutes though.
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Siege
post May 15 2008, 10:04 PM
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Given such specific parameters, are you being set up for something else?

-Siege
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Shiloh
post May 16 2008, 08:27 AM
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QUOTE (Siege @ May 15 2008, 11:04 PM) *
Given such specific parameters, are you being set up for something else?

-Siege

Possibly a good question. That's a lot of inside information the Johnson has supplied: how did he get it? We have information that this is a personal crusade, and I aim to address the issues that raises, or maybe get our Face to do so, when we get to the next session.
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kanislatrans
post May 16 2008, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (Siege @ May 14 2008, 07:02 PM) *
That's an interesting notion - airborne drones with internal shaped charges and grapplers to lock onto targets...

-Siege


Hey,Siege,you been reading my super secret GM note book? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Last game I had Team Pink( at least, thats what their fixer has codenamed them) do a simple demo job. Blow a 3.5 M X3.5M bunker out of existence. Just get close ,set the charge and run. they got a little sweaty when they figured out just how much damage 18 kilo's of rating 15 Milspec plastic explosives would do( I think the estimate was about 260P)

Other uses: I know when c-4 is burned the fumes can be used to incapacitate opponents in an enclosed area(as in burning some in the air vents.) dont know if the 2070 stuff would work.

Interrogation comes to mind also. Nothing says" spill your guts." like a det cord belt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Oh, and don't forget fishing. round here we call a 1'/2 stick tied to a rock a "redneck fish-finder"!
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hobgoblin
post May 17 2008, 06:57 AM
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the damage for those 18 kilos would be closer to 64P then 260P...

square root can be a bitch sometimes...
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Daier Mune
post May 17 2008, 02:48 PM
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oh, only 64P? is that all? psht.
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hobgoblin
post May 17 2008, 03:43 PM
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the most sad thing is that to hit 260P one would need something like 300KG of the stuff...
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