North America War, Who wins? Options

[Rajaat99]

I'm just curious.
I play 3rd, but I took out Tsimshian and Ute to make 4thers happy. Besides, they wouldn't win anyway.

[Cthulhudreams]

You forgot a "Defense Contractors" option.

[Fuchs]

UCAS nukes the rest, their technological advantage allowing them to beat the CAS at that game. As far as having most of your own cities turned into radiactive craters but having a few left can be considered winning.

[Blade]

Saeder Krupp! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Snow_Fox]

there are too many variables- like the outbreak and who sides with who'm.
You'rer not getting a free forall. I think Quebec would be the first destroyed. too small a base too close to other powers. CAS and Aztlan have the best chances to survive having limited numbers of neighbors and large areas to absorb invaders. CFS virtually doesn't exist now.

[Shiloh]

UCAS nukes the rest, their technological advantage allowing them to beat the CAS at that game. As far as having most of your own cities turned into radiactive craters but having a few left can be considered winning.

Even sub-nuclear, the UCAS still has the industrial and population base to win a war if everyone is at everyone's throat. But the place is so big, they couldn't hold any ground for very long and the best they could do is decapitate the other states, surrounding themselves in a sea of Anarchy which wouldn't be good for business.

[paws2sky]

I think it'd be a 3-way tie between CAS, UCAS, and PCC. And since its a tie, everyone is hosed because it'll probably devolve into a WMD throwing competition.

-paws

[CanRay]

Ares and Aztechnology would be the major winners, selling arms to all sides.

After that, I could see Aztlan sweeping up from the North, taking huge swathes of property.

But not Texas, for some strange reason.

[Snow_Fox]

Aztlan was drien out of Sd by the PPC so they are all ready limited.

denvr can't attack but no one in their right mind would attack that and bring out a great dragon

[Fuchs]

We're talking total war according to the OP, so WMDs are in from the start - which means Aztlan will be a glowing wasteland a few minutes afterwards, no one is as stupid as to let those bastards live after their invasions of the CAS and CFS in the past.

Megas were not an option to vote for, but even so - I'd say Ares and SK would take out Aztechnology at the same time Aztlan gets blown up, then turn on each other.

[Fuchs]

Denver probably gets nuked as well, just to take out the GD. A military that was ready to send 67 nukes, one after another, at a russian communication center in case the cold war lit up just to take it out with a 95% chance of success won't let Denver stand, IMHO.

[Fix-it]

no one would win, but a lot of people would lose.

[Malicant]

We're talking total war according to the OP, so WMDs are in from the start - which means Aztlan will be a glowing wasteland a few minutes afterwards

Who exactly has the "turn Aztlan into glowing wasteland" switch? Or did you forget to add the words in my campaign once again?
Remember that magic ignores laws of physics and Aztlan are batshit crazy and use magic that makes immortals uneasy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If nukes did not works versus insect spirits and don't seem to work at all anymore, chances shift to awakend nations in a North America Cluster Fuck, I'd say.

[imperialus]

Yeah Fuchs. You seem to have forgotten that something screwy happened to the nukes.

My money is on the Azzies. Unfortunatly they'll do something that 'man is not meant to do' in the process and open a bridge to the horrors. Then the horrors will win.

[Fuchs]

I do not recall any changes to physics in SR that would render nuclear weapons inoperable, but left nuclear reactors working. Some "this nuke did not go off" incidents from past conflicts, that's all. And if we take novels then Verner and his crew had to target each nuke they were rendering inoperable with a runner team for their spell to work, and no arsenals from the UCAS or CAS were mentioned there, so I assume those are still operational.

[Shiloh]

If nukes did not works versus insect spirits and don't seem to work at all anymore, chances shift to awakend nations in a North America Cluster Fuck, I'd say.

True enough that Nukes aren't perhaps the danger that they used to be, but is it really useful to draw a distinction between the Awakened nations and others? Once, UCAS/CAS were way behind places like the NAN polities, but they've been playing catch-up for long enough now, I think, that their mojo will be of similar quality, if differently flavoured. I'm sure there are nations that have stuck their heads in the sand about Magic, but I don't think the NA states will be among them.

[Malicant]

Oh, they did go off, all right. Just not like a nuclear bomb is supposed to. That is also not the kind of info that will be announced on trid.

System Failure was a fun book.

Also, a nuclear powerplant does not work exactly the same way as a nuclear bomb, most of the time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

True enough that Nukes aren't perhaps the danger that they used to be, but is it really useful to draw a distinction between the Awakened nations and others? Once, UCAS/CAS were way behind places like the NAN polities, but they've been playing catch-up for long enough now, I think, that their mojo will be of similar quality, if differently flavoured. I'm sure there are nations that have stuck their heads in the sand about Magic, but I don't think the NA states will be among them.

Awakened nations with all their wacky shamans can utilize spirits more easily then, let's say a hermetic NA magicain, who enslaves spirits because he can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Seriously though, the moment Aztlan is trown into the equation all bets are off. Those guys are plain sick.

[Kyoto Kid]

Saeder Krupp! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

...exactly, just like in the TCG (wonderful card) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Megas were not an option to vote for, but even so - I'd say Ares and SK would take out Aztechnology at the same time Aztlan gets blown up, then turn on each other.

...and Lofie would still win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Adarael]

I'm so tired of the "nukes don't work like they should" trope. But even if that was the case, you don't need fancy fusing or critical mass reactons to get the same effect by dropping shit on people from space, which is the 2070 equivalent of having some ICBMs. Shit will still be a glowing wasteland if no holds are barred, it just won't be glowing from radiation. It'll be from the heat.

[Malicant]

I'm tired of the "Ghouls are a disease" trope, but it does not change much. Though luck, in every game there are parts you won't like. Deal with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Adarael]

"Ghouls are caused by a disease" is a statement supported by game rules and is specifically mentioned as an in-game scientific fact. Therefore, it is not a trope, but a fact of the shadowrun rules in the majority of editions.

"Nukes don't work right" is an opinion of yours (and several others) that is in NO WAY supported by rules or in-game science other than what people have inferred from a small group of cases. Hence, it is a trope, because it's based on inference and circumstantial evidence. It's like me saying "AIs secretly are plotting to take over the world" because of the actions of Deus and his banded. While it might be true in case X, it is not true for ALL cases.

Witness that Winternight set of dozens and dozens of nuclear weapons and they all worked perfectly fine. Also witness that the militaries of the 6th World keep nuclear weapons around and have been surprised when, in the past, they did not work as expected. This includes militaries with access to strange and unusual magic.

[Malicant]

Ah, the crash '64 was a group of small cases. I see. Yes, a trope it is.

Also, 'NO WAY supported' is not the same as 'it was actually mentioned in a campaign/plot book that is essential for the current timeline of SR and was handled very suspiciously'. You're free to call it a trope, I'm free to call it a weird rumor. Does it change the fact that no one actually applies any rules of warfare in this thread, other than what they learned in RTS games? Not really.

Seriously, the first reaction here seems basicaly "War? Well, the Holy Nation of the United States of America (and some canadians) will drop a gazillion nuclear weapons on anyone (even other americans, huh), simultaniously and instantly, hence will win". That is way more silly then the "nukes don't work" angle.


Oh boy, this thread will be so rich with fun, I'm getting all warm and fuzzy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Shiloh]

Awakened nations with all their wacky shamans can utilize spirits more easily then, let's say a hermetic NA magicain, who enslaves spirits because he can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Not in the 2070s, they can't. The Hermetics have learned to summon spontaneous spirits, and the Shaman have learned to bind 'em... The SotA of Magic has moved on... Or at least that's my explanation of why SR4 is different from SR[previous]

[Adarael]

'it was actually mentioned in a campaign/plot book that is essential for the current timeline of SR and was handled very suspiciously'

In what book and on what page was it mentioned that nuclear weapons are unreliable and unpredictable? I can think of the Cermak blast, where it didn't go off as normal and everyone was surprised, but not anything in any book where it states that this is anything other than a freak event.

[imperialus]

well... there's also p.24 of the SR4 Core Book. "Launched a Lone Eagle ICBM towards the Russian Republic. Everyone thought for sure this was the beginning of the end, but amazingly the warheads never hit. To this day, no one knows how that happened."

P. 22 SR 3 Core Book. "Someone sent a single Lone Eagle ICBM on a collision course with the Russian Republic. World War III was staring us in the face - and then the impossible happened. The warheads never hit.

P. 24, SR 3 Core Book. "North Korea launched nukes at Japan in a desparate effort to force them out of the conflict. The Missiles didn't detonate, however..."

I can keep going back through editions if you want.

Honestly you can even look at all the nuclear plant meltdowns as being indicative that something weird happened to micro level physics at a fundamental level when magic came back. 60+ years of using nuclear power with a grand total of 2 incidents (chernoble and 3 mile island) and all of a sudden just looking at the Disasters R Us bit in SR3 we have a total of 4 meltdowns in Europe alone between 2004 and 2011.