Military Grade Weapons, What do they use? Options

[Emperor Tippy]

What would be standard issue when you expect to be facing someone in Heavy Mil spec Armor with Gel Packs and Orthoskin (or 22/20)? Whats the best weapon to use that doesn't cost 15K a copy (laser weapons).

I'm thinking an HK XM30 with APDS rounds for -5 AP. But even then it's 17 dice against 6P damage. Meaning an average of 1 point of stun damage per attack. I suppose you could go with a Narrow Full Burst for a DV of 15P, which would average 9 points of stun damage.

[Fix-it]

Lasers.

[Emperor Tippy]

Lasers.

Actually aren't that great. The half AP is great but if you go with the max portable version its only 7P damage. Average damage is about 4s in the end. So 4 times as much damage as the HK for about 5 times the price, and the laser can fire fewer shots before reloading and is Semi Auto vs. the HK's ability to go full auto.

It really doesn't seem worth it.

[Shrike30]

HMGs are pretty good for stuff like that. Even with all the armor, your raw damage value on a long or full burst is going to be hard to shrug off reliably.

"Heavy Mil-Spec Armor" can, among other things, be powered (+Strength) and support gyromounts in the arms (which, along with a gas vent, mean that HMGs can be used as full-auto rifles). Going this route means fighting fire with fire, so to speak, but standard issue for fighting *anything* should be "at least what he's got, if not more."

Lasers are, actually, a good way to do this. Sure, your damage may average out to 4S or so, but it only takes a few 4S hits to drop someone. And they're a lot cheaper than the thing you're trying to kill.

The "cheap" solution to this is rockets, missiles, stolen cars (hit the guy with a garbage truck!), a skilled rifleman popping the guy in the head when he's not expecting it (and therefore unable to dodge), or just a buttload of TNT in the back of a (rigged) vehicle. Be creative! An inexpensive solution to a 100k+ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) threat should require some inventiveness.

[Emperor Tippy]

HMGs are pretty good for stuff like that. Even with all the armor, your raw damage value on a long or full burst is going to be hard to shrug off reliably.

"Heavy Mil-Spec Armor" can, among other things, be powered (+Strength) and support gyromounts in the arms (which, along with a gas vent, mean that HMGs can be used as full-auto rifles). Going this route means fighting fire with fire, so to speak, but standard issue for fighting *anything* should be "at least what he's got, if not more."

Lasers are, actually, a good way to do this. Sure, your damage may average out to 4S or so, but it only takes a few 4S hits to drop someone. And they're a lot cheaper than the thing you're trying to kill.

And when you throw in Platelet Factories and Trauma Dampers that 4s becomes 2s. And if we add the soldiers body to the DR test it actually averages no damage at all.

The "cheap" solution to this is rockets, missiles, stolen cars (hit the guy with a garbage truck!), a skilled rifleman popping the guy in the head when he's not expecting it (and therefore unable to dodge), or just a buttload of TNT in the back of a (rigged) vehicle. Be creative! An inexpensive solution to a 100k+ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) threat should require some inventiveness.

I'm not looking for a particuarly cheap solution, just what would be a good solution for a military force. Laser weapons really don't seem worth the cost.

[KarmaInferno]

Fire Elemental.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


-karma

[toturi]

Stunbolt/ball.

[DocTaotsu]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Freeze Foam

Failing that "Spray Glue+Things That Explode for Under 1000 Nuyen"

Is he wearing enviromental seals? I sure hope so.

[Emperor Tippy]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Freeze Foam

I'll take a look at it.

Is he wearing enviromental seals? I sure hope so.

Of course. What military force would be stupid enough to not make their soldiers immune to chemical attacks? I mean with chemical seals on all your troops you can use a lot of nasty stuff with impunity.

[DocTaotsu]

A throwing adept and ballistic babies.

What! Didn't we agree that it'd kill a cop car?


On a serious note. Wait until he has to leaves the suit. He's not sleeping in there is he?
Also, dropping something heavy from a great height.

A more complex solution might be using a sprayed acid (called shot chemical seals?) followed up by the ever popular Narcoject line of chemical interventions.

[Muspellsheimr]

Heavy Machine Guns, Sniper Rifles, Energy-Based Weapons, Heavy Artillery, Mana Bolt.

[Heath Robinson]

I would see if I were allowed to deploy 50 nobodies with AK-97s. Those kinds of numerical imbalances trump equipment, thanks to Lanchester's laws. The armoured guy's equipment and training has to be 2500 times as effective as an AK in the hands of a nobody (mayhaps a Middle Eastern nobody, but a nobody nonetheless).

The economic system that put the armoured guy on the battlefield may inevitably defeat the nation that puts 50 nobodies on the field, but one-on-one I'd put my money on the AKs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If you want to restrict it to less than 15k, then make it 20 nobodies. The guy has to be 400 times as effective.

[DocTaotsu]

Actually I was thinking of that from a game mechanic perspective.

Everytime you get engaged in combat within a given pass you get a -1 right? Is that cumilative? Will 50 people with slingshots eventually give you such a steep modifier to defense that your armor is meaningless?

I call this, the Ewok Defense, and it is never to be mentioned at my gaming table.

[hyzmarca]

Shape Earth (or Concrete, or Whatever) and Trid Phantasm. Dig a hole, cover the hole, lure him into the hole, and fill the hole up. Mundane equivalents (a shovel, a tarp, and some leaves) also work fairly well, but it is difficult to fill a hole with a shovel when its occupant is shooting at you. Covering the hole with a thick piece of metal, locking the cover in place, and filling the hole with water can also work. Just make sure he can't get out before dying from hypoxia.

Or, actually, if you have a magician on board for the Shape Earth trick, don't bother getting fancy, just manabolt the sumbeach. Or stunbolt the sumbeach, remove his armor, urinate up his nose until he drowns, put his helmet back on, and prop him up beside the light pole at a crosswalk. That's classy.

Yeah. Direct combat spells beat armor every time. If he's fast enough to get the drop on your magician and possess heavy firepower, just use a telescope and a blimp (or a tall building) to take him out from very far away.

[Muspellsheimr]

Everytime you get engaged in combat within a given pass you get a -1 right? Is that cumilative? Will 50 people with slingshots eventually give you such a steep modifier to defense that your armor is meaningless?

Incorrect. The penalties are cumulative, but only apply to your defense test. Nothing short of de-armoring you (or Decrease Body) will affect your damage resistance tests.

[Emperor Tippy]

I would see if I were allowed to deploy 50 nobodies with AK-97s. Those kinds of numerical imbalances trump equipment, thanks to Lanchester's laws. The armoured guy's equipment and training has to be 2500 times as effective as an AK in the hands of a nobody (mayhaps a Middle Eastern nobody, but a nobody nonetheless).

The economic system that put the armoured guy on the battlefield may inevitably defeat the nation that puts 50 nobodies on the field, but one-on-one I'd put my money on the AKs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If you want to restrict it to less than 15k, then make it 20 nobodies. The guy has to be 400 times as effective.

Thats why the soldiers have chemical seals, they just hit you with some Seven-7 and thats that.

[Heath Robinson]

Actually I was thinking of that from a game mechanic perspective.

Everytime you get engaged in combat within a given pass you get a -1 right? Is that cumilative? Will 50 people with slingshots eventually give you such a steep modifier to defense that your armor is meaningless?

I call this, the Ewok Defense. And it is never to be mentioned at my gaming table.

I was going on the improbability of making 50 damage resistance tests every turn, but that works as well. It's more a ZERG RUSH KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKE!



I actually worked out the budgeting for the limited version involving 20 guys, adding up to 15k.

20 AK-97s: 10k
80 AK097 clips: 0.4k
1800 rounds of Regular ammunition: 3.6k
200 ration packs: 1k

Offer the ration packs as reward for successful completion of the mission. Very few barren residents would say no to a week of food for gunning down some poor slot with provided AKs and ammunition. Throw in the AKs and ammo as reward, because there's little you can do to stop 20 guys with AKs without calling in artillery and air support.

Thats why the soldiers have chemical seals, they just hit you with some Seven-7 and thats that.

Aye, but before they manage to affect your swarm with some of the old double-seven you've got a round of suppression tests that need to be passed. It really comes down to the question of who gets the drop on whom, and one side has twenty chances to do anything.

[Emperor Tippy]

Aye, but before they manage to affect your swarm with some of the old double-seven you've got a round of suppression tests that need to be passed. It really comes down to the question of who gets the drop on whom, and one side has twenty chances to do anything.

Yeah but my dudes Initiative is 13 and he can always spend a point of edge to go first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Really, you can put Rating 3 Synaptic Boosters in a guy for 240K. They make you more than 4 times as effective. There is no reason a nation shouldn't be putting them in at least their higher end soldiers (i.e. the guys in heavy armor that costs around 50K a copy).

Stuff thats very expensive for runners isn't that bad for the government. A regular marine grunt costs 1.25 million to train and equip. Training a Ranger adds on another million or so. Your already talking real money, you might as well put even more into it so that your investment has a better chance of recouping the cost.
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Well I came up with the gun I want, it just costs 21,300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a copy. If I cut the ammo in half it's only 15,300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) though. Is a hundred rounds before reloading enough? Or should I stick with 200?

Hypervelocity HK XM30's are expensive.

[Daier Mune]

Gauss Rifle with an underbarrel Laser. or grenade launcher.

[hyzmarca]

Yeah but my dudes Initiative is 13 and he can always spend a point of edge to go first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Really, you can put Rating 3 Synaptic Boosters in a guy for 240K. They make you more than 4 times as effective. There is no reason a nation shouldn't be putting them in at least their higher end soldiers (i.e. the guys in heavy armor that costs around 50K a copy).

Still, a magician with a pair of binoculars is going to kick his ass.

[Emperor Tippy]

Gauss Rifle with an underbarrel Laser. or grenade launcher.

You mean the Gauss Rifle that with APDS rounds only has an AP of 9 and a DV of 9p. That leaves 13 dice from armor to soak, add in a body of 9 and you have 22 dice to soak, or an average of 2 damage. Which Platelet Factories and a Trauma Damper reduce to 1s damage total.

I really have come to the conclusion that your best off with a full auto weapon using a Narrow Full Burst for +9 DV. That gives 15p for damage and -5 AP, for 26 dice to soak. You average 7 points soaked and Trauma/Platelets knock off another 2 for 6S damage.

[Emperor Tippy]

Still, a magician with a pair of binoculars is going to kick his ass.

And awakened people make up 1% of the worlds population. Go with a third of that as magicians and your at .33%. With the way the corps recruit them I can't see there being that many mages in the military. Sure they exist and sure they are a threat. But a few million nuyen will give you another solider capable of taking anything except a mage. And when a mage is about they just call in the T-Birds and artillery strikes.

[Heath Robinson]

Yeah but my dudes Initiative is 13 and he can always spend a point of edge to go first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Really, you can put Rating 3 Synaptic Boosters in a guy for 240K. They make you more than 4 times as effective. There is no reason a nation shouldn't be putting them in at least their higher end soldiers (i.e. the guys in heavy armor that costs around 50K a copy).

Stuff thats very expensive for runners isn't that bad for the government. A regular marine grunt costs 1.25 million to train and equip. Training a Ranger adds on another million or so. Your already talking real money, you might as well put even more into it so that your investment has a better chance of recouping the cost.

240k is, according to the numbers I've been running by, another 32 guys with AKs. Those guys make the unit, as a whole, roughly....

CODE

((x + 32)^2) / x = (x^2 + 64x + 1024) / x = x + 64 + 1024/x

let x = 20

20 + 64 + 1024/20 = 84 + 51.2 = 135.2

Okay, those 32 guys make the unit 135.2 times more effective. Further guys have more and more ridiculously returns (theoretically, of course). I'm not factoring in a variety of things, but investing in more people is often better than better tech. Now, there are other advantages to better tech but they are more strategic level advantages.

Well I came up with the gun I want, it just costs 21,300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a copy. If I cut the ammo in half it's only 15,300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) though. Is a hundred rounds before reloading enough? Or should I stick with 200?

Hypervelocity HK XM30's are expensive.

100 should be sufficient, if anyone is left standing after 5 double sized full bursts you've a lot more to worry about than reloading.

[FriendoftheDork]

You use a team of 4 trained soldiers (rating 4), with pimped out assault rifles firing EX-EX. Then they all fire full narrow burst, taking called shot to avoid all 22 armor or whatever. Then each use one point of edge for a long shot and mr. supersoldier is DEAD!

[Emperor Tippy]

240k is, according to the numbers I've been running by, another 32 guys with AKs. Those guys make the unit, as a whole, roughly....

CODE

((x + 32)^2) / x = (x^2 + 64x + 1024) / x = x + 64 + 1024/x

let x = 20

20 + 64 + 1024/20 = 84 + 51.2 = 135.2

Okay, those 32 guys make the unit 135.2 times more effective. Further guys have more and more ridiculously returns (theoretically, of course). I'm not factoring in a variety of things, but investing in more people is often better than better tech. Now, there are other advantages to better tech but they are more strategic level advantages.

Yes, quantity does have a quality all its own. But lets go with 30 guys (makes the maths easier), give them straight 3's to represent a professional level (I think I'm being generous here). All of them use suppressive fire on the area the solider is in. So 6 dice each.
Statically speaking, 10 guys will get 2 hits, 10 guys will get more than 2 hits, and 10 guys will get fewer than 2 hits. The odds of any of the 30 guys getting 6 hits is 4%.

I can buy 3 hits which gives your guys a 53% chance that at least 1 of them hits me.
So 1 hit. With an AK-97 with normal ammo I get 21 armor dice to soak your 6 points of damage. Add in 9 body and I get 30 dice. That's enough that I can buy enough hits to totally soak it.

Now its my turn on the offense. 4 IP and I roll 14 dice before smart guns or anything else. Thats an average of 4 hits. With 3 reaction your guys can't possibly make the check. I can do 2 narrow, short bursts per initiative pass. Each one does 6P damage before soaking, your guys soak an average of 1 point each for 5P damage. I can hit 8 guys per round. Once they are shot the -2 wound penalty makes it effectively impossible for them to hit me, so they become irrelevant.

100 should be sufficient, if anyone is left standing after 5 double sized full bursts you've a lot more to worry about than reloading.

Yeah prolly. But with 2 clips I can have 1 of ExEx and 1 of APDS.