Is Possesion for real?, How do I fight an invincible houngan? Options

[evil_bacteria]

Being a huge SR fan since second edition, last year I bought 4th and got my friends to play (though sadly, we almost never RP any more). One of the players wanted a magician, but not a "regular, boring ol' mage," so he got his hands on Street Magic and made a voodun. I glanced over the rules and said, "Go with it."

The problem is, it seems Possesion is incredibly powerful. By conjuring up a Force 5 or 6 spirit, then letting it posses him, his character basically becomes invincible: the spirit gives him Immunity to Normal Weapons, so even machine guns bounce off of him while he's possesed. According to the rules as I read them, you don't even have to bind the spirit, so he doesn't even have to spend nuyen!

So, what do I do? I hate telling someone they can't use a rule (because I love as much variety as I can get), but how do you challenge someone like that? Other than putting a couple of mages with Panthers in every group of bad guys, do you guys have any ideas how to put a damper on Possesed vooduns?

[Kyoto Kid]

...FAE? Orbital Bovine Strike? Thor Shot? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[DocTaotsu]

Won't manastatic still totally ruin his day?

[Jackstand]

Banishing certainly would.

[Jaid]

the only difference between your possessed magician and a magician who conjures a manifesting spirit, is that the possessed magician doesn't get to take his own actions, use his own skills, or do anything really other than giving orders to the spirit that is possessing him.

so in other words, if you think *that* is bad, just imagine that spirit being able to take it's own set of actions plus the magician being able to take his own actions.

now of course, if your magician has the channelling metamagic, it gets a little better... at least he gets to use his own skills. of course, now the spirit doesn't use it's skills unless you burn a service every time, and a manifesting spirit would still be able to use it's own separate actions rather than just the magician getting whatever actions.

seriously, possession has it's upsides (especially if all you care about is keeping someone alive via immunity to normal weapons, for example) but it has drawbacks too (such as the spirit takes up someone else's actions, it uses up a service to possess somebody, and it may not even succeed at possessing somebody). really, given a choice between most 400 BP shadowrunners and a force 5 spirit (or even a force 8 or 9 spirit for that matter, unless it's a free spirit maybe) i would choose the 400 BP shadowrunner to join my team.

[hyzmarca]

I prefer the low-tech and low-magic approach. Elemental attacks half armor. Electricity, fire, acids, bases, high pressure water, pitfalls, deep pools, extreme cold, high-pressure air, vacuum chambers, and similar weapons would be extremely effective.

[Fortune]

As Jaid said, keep in mind that with normal possession, the Spirit actually takes over the character. The character himself has only limited control (if any) over his body, and hence the Spirit's activities while being possessed.

[kanislatrans]

How do you beat a Hogan? Well ,first, I'd rake his eyes and hit him with my famous"flaming fist of doom" maneuver. Then while he's reeling from that Id jump out of the ring and grab chair....Oh thats Houngan. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

i don't have street magic so I'm not much help on rules. but seems to me a spirit is still a spirit and could be hit from the astral. again I don't have the rules here and haven't really had time to read up an all the traditions.

Personally, I'd be scared to run a character that the GM gets to run alot of the time. of course I'm the GM at the moment and would just love to have a character that I could play with in all sorts of devious and horrible ways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

"hmm ,Mogwie,Lord of battle,has decided that he will go into battle naked exept for a jelly donut hat and a neon condom. The better to strike fear into his opponents."

* I gotta get a copy of SM just in case I can use that* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[evil_bacteria]

Jaid: Yes, the possesing spirit uses its own skills, not the magician's, until he gets Channelling. Then, it's a fraggin' free-for-all, with the Invincible Mage with all his skills and magic spells and whatnot. So it's a 400 BP runner with Immunity to Normal Weapons. How is that not insane? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

With a manifesting spirit, it's still ridiculous, because the spirit is unstoppable, but at least the mage is in some danger. The bad guys can still shoot at him, even if his spirit is running amok through and over everyone else. I can deal with that. It's the fact that the character has nothing to fear from even tough NPCs who don't happen to have magic or missile launchers at hand that bothers me.

hyzmarca: The way I understand it, you don't get to "halve" Immunity to Normal Weapons. It's not armor, it's magical immunity, thus fire and electricity and such are (I assume) no more dangerous than a handgun.

Everybody: My real problem is not, "How do I hurt the character?", but rather, "How do I put the character in danger in plausable ways?" Sure, I could give every go-ganger a Striker, and make every other CorpSec a mage, but that's a rather absurd answer, isn't it?

[Johnny Jacks]

Everybody: My real problem is not, "How do I hurt the character?", but rather, "How do I put the character in danger in plausable ways?" Sure, I could give every go-ganger a Striker, and make every other CorpSec a mage, but that's a rather absurd answer, isn't it?

Well, according to page 94 of Street Magic, even mundanes can attempt to make an Attack of Will against a spirit. I can't find anywhere that says it doesn't work against possessing spirits, so that should work.

[RunnerPaul]

My real problem is not, "How do I hurt the character?", but rather, "How do I put the character in danger in plausable ways?"

Splash Grenades loaded with Freeze-Foam? Pretty much standard anti-riot gear by the 2070s and while not directly dangerous to the possessed they go a long way to neutralizing the threat.

[Muspellsheimr]

It looks like your problem is that you do not understand how Immunity works. Immunity to Natural Weapons gives the creature Hardened Armor (Magic x 2) against everything non-magical (excluding it's Allergies, if any), and follows the same rules for Hardened Armor.

If the modified DV of an attack (Base Damage + Net Hits + Called Shot) does not exceed the modified Hardened Armor, it does no damage. Yes, this means AP and Elemental Attacks work normally in regards to the armor. If it does enough to risk damage, the Hardened Armor (aka Immunity) essentially turns into normal armor in all respects. Also note that Burst Fire & Full Auto, although great, does not come into the calculations for modified DV until after you have determined if the immune creature risks damage or not.

All Immunities, except Age, work this way as well. So, vampires for example will be unfazed by lower power toxins, but all but the most powerful (Magic 12+) will still take a nasty hit from Ringu.

[WearzManySkins]

A high charisma Elf Mage/Adept with Tai Chi martial arts gets a very high chance to use his force of Attack of Will against the possessing spirit.

Kiai (Tai Chi Ch’uan) can add +3 to the DV of Attacks of Will, so a elf can have a Charisma of 8 fairly easily so the DV of the Attack Of Will will be 11DV, with a Will Power of 6 and an Banishing Skill of 6 gives 12 dice to the dice pool for the attack at a DV of 11.

Some here can tweak that even higher both in DV and in dice pools.

Against Attacks of Will Spirits do not get Immunity to Natural Weapons.

WMS

[hyzmarca]

Jaid: Yes, the possesing spirit uses its own skills, not the magician's, until he gets Channelling. Then, it's a fraggin' free-for-all, with the Invincible Mage with all his skills and magic spells and whatnot. So it's a 400 BP runner with Immunity to Normal Weapons. How is that not insane? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

With a manifesting spirit, it's still ridiculous, because the spirit is unstoppable, but at least the mage is in some danger. The bad guys can still shoot at him, even if his spirit is running amok through and over everyone else. I can deal with that. It's the fact that the character has nothing to fear from even tough NPCs who don't happen to have magic or missile launchers at hand that bothers me.

hyzmarca: The way I understand it, you don't get to "halve" Immunity to Normal Weapons. It's not armor, it's magical immunity, thus fire and electricity and such are (I assume) no more dangerous than a handgun.

Everybody: My real problem is not, "How do I hurt the character?", but rather, "How do I put the character in danger in plausable ways?" Sure, I could give every go-ganger a Striker, and make every other CorpSec a mage, but that's a rather absurd answer, isn't it?

Elemental effects have always halved Immunity to Normal Weapons. In previous editions, this was explicitly stated in the description of the immunity power.

If you want to challenge a PC who uses this tactic, start by making heavy use of Background Count. Many areas should have a low-level BC of 1 or 2. This effectively reduces the force of the spirit and thus reduces its Immunity. The second is to apply strategically located Wards. These environmental obstacles will force a possessed PC to expend services (depossess, metaplane shortcut, repossess) to get past without tripping the alarm.

[evil_bacteria]

Muspellsheimr and hyzmarca, thank you so much. Obviously, my encyclopedic knowledge of 3rd edition is not as great as I thought, and 4th is still pulling tricks on me.

Thanks for eveyrone's input!

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, as you've discovered guys with APDS in rifles or just stick and shock 'pwn' spirits. Hardcore. Break out the snipers.

[weblife]

Just a quick addition, regarding the use of Channelling. It does not take a service for each use of the spirits power.

If I had summoned a spirit and ordered it to follow me around and strike down my enemies, it would be 1 service and it would use any required power to complete its task. Only caveat would be how you describe your enemies.

Other common uses, destroy all persons who carry arms in this building (except me and my friends *point to each*) is also just 1 service and it'll use all powers in its disposal to complete the job.

Having the spirit possess you, with the service being "Assist me in destroying my enemies, as defined by those I attack or point out" would be 1 service. Having the spirit also use Guard or Magical Guard on your team would be another service though.

The true benefit from possession is the increased protection to the mage, typically the combat troll can match or surpass this though.

Other counters are Mana Static or simply background count. Remember the latter can be aspected by the corp mages, to be a benefit for them, while penalizing invaders not of the same tradition.

Finally, all things are good in moderation. Posession with 4-6 Force spirits is not bad, but if you have someone able to actually call a Force 12 spirit, then the power level of your game is already way beyond what most facilities are built to withstand. I'd assume such a powerful character is not working for a few measly thousand nuyen, but rather is invading Renraku Arcologies and killing dragons as a day-to-day business.

[Blade]

The problem with possession is that the mage is... possessed. Which means that it has a spirit with its own agenda controlling his body. That depends a lot on the tradition of the mage, but for example a houngan doesn't exactly bind the lwa to his will. He's ridden by the lwa, and doesn't have much control over what the lwa does, especially if it's a high rating spirit.
Also the lwa might not like to be summoned each time the houngan faces some opposition.

So that's why I think a houngan would/should probably summon a lwa only when necessary. And when something like that happens, it probably means that the opposition has something dangerous enough to threaten it.

[Ryu]

If I had summoned a spirit and ordered it to follow me around and strike down my enemies, it would be 1 service and it would use any required power to complete its task. Only caveat would be how you describe your enemies.

SNIP

Having the spirit possess you, with the service being "Assist me in destroying my enemies, as defined by those I attack or point out" would be 1 service. Having the spirit also use Guard or Magical Guard on your team would be another service though.

"One service" is one activity that is not interrupted. You get one combat per service if you let the spirit decide which powers to use.

A use of Guard (or Conceal or whatever) would interrupt the previous order - it´s either combat or stealth.

[Metatron]

Don't forget that the mage when possessed is dual natured, so wards are a problem. (unless they have masking, and even then...)

It might not be mortal danger, but it's something to remember (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[FrankTrollman]

A use of Guard (or Conceal or whatever) would interrupt the previous order - it´s either combat or stealth.

This is not correct. Spirits don't have to do anything to provide Guard or Concealment. While sustaining Guard on you and yours is a service, a spirit is quite capable of using additional services while continuing to maintain that function. Indeed, going to battle without benefiting from Guard is kind of stupid, especially if you're bringing explosives or monowhips to the fight.

As to how many services can be used up in an attack, that's highly variable. A single attack on a structure may be from some points of view multiple combats, but from other points of view it will be one combat. It doesn't stop being the same combat just because you took cover behind a dumpster and tried to buy time while your friend snuck around the side to catch your enemies in a crossfire. It doesn't stop being the same combat just because you took down the guards in this room if there are more guards in the next room and so on.

The definition of a service is highly and deliberately variable. But assistance with fighting the guys in that building does not end as a service until you have defeated everyone in the building, been killed, or safely escaped the area and pursuit from the facility. The fact that you take some time to catch your breath Die Hard style while your friend hacks the wall mounted gun turrets doesn't make your attack finished and the spirit doesn't leave.

Just because you rolled initiative again doesn't mean it's a new combat, it just means that it's a new combat round. Spirits don't stick around for a scene, they stick around for a task - and that is frequently many scenes.

-Frank

[Drogos]

Blade most definately has the right of it. The loas are not to be used as tools, humans are tools of the loa. I suggest you remind him of that. Read up on some of the mythology of Voodoo and you'll get some rather devious ideas.

[Sir_Psycho]

Spirits in general are powerful. But remember that if a tradition is a Possession Tradition, then the spirits can't actually materialize and fight FOR you, they can only fight IN you.

If you want to balance it a little, I'd suggest Possession being a bound service, so they have to spend a little money preparing the vessel and such.

Personally, I think I'd prefer a non-possession spirit, materialized, using guard on me and with it's free IP's, attacking the enemies for me, and then I can still make my own actions.

[weblife]

The problem with possession is that the mage is... possessed. Which means that it has a spirit with its own agenda controlling his body. That depends a lot on the tradition of the mage, but for example a houngan doesn't exactly bind the lwa to his will. He's ridden by the lwa, and doesn't have much control over what the lwa does, especially if it's a high rating spirit.
Also the lwa might not like to be summoned each time the houngan faces some opposition.

So that's why I think a houngan would/should probably summon a lwa only when necessary. And when something like that happens, it probably means that the opposition has something dangerous enough to threaten it.

Channelling. If you go Posession you will get this as soon as you have 13 karma and a suitable magic group on hand. Its effectively a little like a true merge, where you use whatever ability set is better for the task, yours or the spirits.

Even if you do not have Channelling, you can order the spirit just like a rigger in captains chair. It even says so in the description somewhere. The spirit, while having its own agenda, is not free to follow it. You summoned it, you control it, you OWN it until its services are out.

Also, having it manifest is not a service. Having it move around, as in, go to door, open door.... *time goes*... place suitcase, press red button, get up, run... Would all cost NO services, since you've nicely broken all its actions into simple actions by running a commentary from inside your skull, with the spirit performing each step within the capacity of its skills. As long as no powers are required, and you keep the actions simple, no service is spent.

Combat would not be simple however, so going into combat would cost a service, but wisely worded the service can cover several combats until your task is completed.

All that, without channelling. Channelling is just like gravy. More is better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Apathy]

In my view of things, a corp's magical security would include:

• Aspected background count 1.
• Wards all over the place. Blocking corredors, doorways, and elevator shafts. They're cheap and effective, at least for detecting astral and/or dual natured intruders.
• Randomly patroling watchers. Once again, cheap astral detection.
• There's an awakened plant in SM (can't remember the name right now and don't have it with me) that projects a local background count up to level 4. These clusters of potted plants would be artfully arranged at important junctures and choke points.
• Security using stick-n-shock and neurostun. More effective, and less likely to cause collateral damage on their own facility and employees.
• If security mages show up, a quick manastatic spell makes spirits relatively unimpressive.

So a possessing mage is dual natured, and can't walk through the front door, the secondary corredor, or up the elevator to the 53rd floor without notifying security, unless he releases and recalls the spirit. Each one of those uses up a service, and the mage won't have many services with a high force spirit.