[X] My Assistant

[reepneep]

Some people might be inspired to stop and think about how they are viewing the situation when they realize that pretty much every other person involved in the discussion disagrees with their stated point-of-view.

You are aware that this discussion is taking place on teh intarwebs, yes?

[Sir_Psycho]

Mr. Johnson: I need a team that does extractions, the target is mid level and has a moderate security detail.
Fixer: Well I have 2 possible teams that are available. Team A has done work for me in the past, no complaints but they charge a minimum of 200K. Team B hasn't worked for me before but they apparently have the skills and are professional, they charge a minimum of 100K. I'll vouch for the first team but no guarantees on the second

So you justify charging 100k by suggesting that the teams who aren't bottom-feeders with no rep like you are making 200k? Excellent supportive evidence there. I'll suggest some of my own.

2. After a typical meet at a bar, Mr. Johnson asks the team to do
a typical job—a datasteal for a corp. The target: GMC. However,
this is not exactly a datasteal. It’s a data switch.
Federated-Boeing caught wind that GMC was putting out
a new design for their Banshee t-bird, which made the corp quite
upset because it employed technology Fed-Boeing had secretly
developed. Evidently, someone’s been leaking information. What
the runners are to do is hack into GMC (which may require some
on-site sleuthing), find the vehicle specs and take them, and then
plant a bogus file with changed specs. For this, the team would
be paid 40,000¥. Mr. Johnson won’t budge from that figure, but
would be willing to front the runners half of the sum and give
them a discount on Fed-Boeing goods.
During their hunt for the data, the runners may be able
to discover who the leak is at Fed-Boeing (a low-level manager
named Darien Blackwell) as well as other data that’s been sold.
Selling this information to Mr. Johnson can net them an additional
10,000¥.

children, and this time he created a huge mess he needs cleaned
up physically, magically, and technologically. Mr. Johnson is prepared
to offer the runners 30,000¥ to eradicate all evidence of his
boss’s involvement in a potential scandal. He’s hoping he won’t
have to buy the runners’ silence as well, because he doesn’t really
have the money to give them, but if he has to, he’ll offer another
10,000¥ for it.

especially when two are elderly and one, is an infant.
Either through legwork or speaking with the cargo, the runners
become privy to the following info: the scientist (surnamed
Cheung) worked in Evo’s biotechnology R&D, attempting to
decipher the languages and vocal apparatus of various marine
life in an attempt to better adapt metahumans for work in underwater
environments. Seeing a chance to bolster their flagging
fortunes, those who make the decisions at Shiawase authorized
the extraction of the scientist as well as his family, to ensure that
worry for their welfare would not distract him from his work.
Shiawase offers the team 30,000¥, going as high as 50,000¥ if the
runners are skilled at negotiations.
What Shiawase does not know is that Cheung was partially...

Assassination: 5000
Bodyguard: 200/day
Burglary: 2000
Courier Run: 1000
Datasteal: 20% Value of Data
Distraction: 1000
Destruction: 5000
Enforcement: 1000
Encryption/Decryption: 200/per MP
Extraction: 20k
Hacking: 1000 x Host's Security Value SR3 Matrix.
Investigation: 200/day
Smuggling Run: 5000

The Baseline Payment table is designed to be tacked onto your lifestyle cost. These were the best prices I could find. Interesting.

[Emperor Tippy]

Some people might be inspired to stop and think about how they are viewing the situation when they realize that pretty much every other person involved in the discussion disagrees with their stated point-of-view.

I have stopped and thought about the situation. Multiple times. I have had this debate before on other forums and in RL with multiple people. Some agree, some don't. All I know is that with the skill set and ware of a normal PC's runner *I* would not risk my life for less than 10K in profit (in fact it would prolly require a higher amount) after reasonable expenses are taken into account.

Do you dispute that the expenses are reasonable (fake SIN, safe house, rented vehicle)? If not then you are disputing the cost of risking your life.

A lot of the debate comes down to the perceived balance of power between the runners and the Johnson. I see it as the Johnson coming to the runners and asking them to perform the run, not as the runners coming to the Johnson. I see it as runners who can shrug their shoulders and walk away if they don't see the compensation as worth the risk, they can always get money if/when they need it, and a Johnson who has told some highly dangerous people about the run he has planned and who could very well sell him out, who has to decide whether the cost of having the runners eliminated is worth the risk and expense. If he was only willing to pay 50K for the run and the players shrugged and said 100K then what does he do? Higher another team to take out the runners, which would prolly cost him another 50K and has no guarantee of success? Or pay the runners 100K, which will keep them quiet and get the job done.

[Emperor Tippy]

It seems to me that if corps are all about Cost/Benefit Analysis then wouldn't the Mr. J see more benefit for the cost of someone that the fixer is more confident to get it done?

For example, if you hire an Analyst to look over your systems and the Analyst says that neither program will work completely, guaranteed, but that the more expensive one is more likely to work than the other, which are you going to pick? If you're on a low budget and it's not a mandatory system, sure, you might pick the second one but you'd probably feel more secure picking the one that your Analyst is more confident about.

Same with the Fixer. Your fixer says I've got two guys, one with a decent reputation for getting the job done for $75K and one for no Rep for $50K ($15K and $10K for a team of 5, respectively) the Mr. J is more likely to choose the $75K if he needs it to be done and has the money to spend, and the $50K if he's on a budget and doesn't care as much about it.

Seems to me that the more prestige you have (even if it's just with your fixer), the higher the jobs and more money you'll get.

You say "eventually" the Mr. J will risk it; to me that sounds like you get less jobs for less money with no rep. Rep seems to be the mechanism for getting more jobs for more money, doesn't it?

What I said. Your "rep" with your fixer matters, that rep being entirely the fact that out of X runs he has given you the Johnson has never complained/has been satisfied Y times. You don't have a "rep" in the underworld that the Johnson has any access too. Sure he might know that "Bob", "Snake", and "John" are all good, skilled, reliable, people but he doesn't know that "Mike", the guy he is highering for the run, is all of those people. He also has no way to find out. So it comes down to how much he trusts your fixer and your fixers rep.

As for the eventually thing, its exactly like you said. The Fixer might offer your team up 10 times before the Johnson bites the first time, but it doesn't really matter. One can assume that said bite has already happened in game as its the players first run. And once that run has been successfully concluded your "rep" with said fixer goes up.

My main dispute is with the assumed base price for runs, not with beginning runners making less money than experienced runners. I really like the 20% of the paydata's value on Sir_Psycho's chart, that should be several million (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on most runs. The plans for the new tech? That new program that X was about to release?

[Fuchs]

Just a few basic assumtions I go by:

A run should pay so much that shadowrunning is worth the risk and covers all the costs, the lifestyle, and enough for the retirement/upgrade funds. How much that is exaclty depends on the campaign, but I consider it a pure meta-game decision - the group's fun decides.

A Johnson should not to hire runners for something that's not worth hiring runners for.

Apart from those entering the shadows for the first time, runners usually already do have a history at the start of a campaign.

How much reputation matters, and how wide-spread a reputation is, depends on the specific campaign. LA's P2.0 is one extreme, Tippy's "Only fixers know runners" the other. Most campaigns will probably fall in between, with some runners aquiring a rep, if not as runners, then as people not to mess with, after the sam "took out that Orc ganger and his troll buddy 2 weeks ago in Jenny's Bar, they wanted to mug him".

[Crusher Bob]

I have stopped and thought about the situation. Multiple times. I have had this debate before on other forums and in RL with multiple people. Some agree, some don't. All I know is that with the skill set and ware of a normal PC's runner *I* would not risk my life for less than 10K in profit (in fact it would prolly require a higher amount) after reasonable expenses are taken into account.

What makes things even worse here is the Mickey Mouse quality of the timetable, intel, and support you get out of the Johnson. the 10K in profit figure should only be charged for the simplest of runs where the timetable allows plenty of time for legwork, and the whole job is not that risky. The idiotic 'you go in tonight' style runs that the book adventures tend to be are the kind where you want a bank up front, and just walk away if you don't get it. In addition, the price goes up above and beyond the risk you are running because the Johnson is incompetent enough to have let things get to this stage. This means that things are likely even worse than he knows or is telling you. For a pile if idiocy like First Run, your crew (assuming 4) had better be getting something like 200K up front and 200K on delivery, or its no deal. If it the whole job could have been done by someone with a car thiefs skills, then you can pay ~10K to a car thief and everyone will be happy.

[bishop186]

I could see runners going through several runs before gaining any rep. Once is luck. Twice is coincidence. Three times is getting there. By the fourth, you've gained some rep with the fixer.

Honestly, the low missions are definitely going to be offering lower pay than a 400BP character is worth, but them's the breaks when you're starting as a team of highly trained people with no reputation. It's akin to going into an industry with a 4-year degree and no experience. You get lower pay at first because you're inexperienced with the way things are run even though you have knowledge of the field.

Once you've got the experience, you get the pay. If you don't have experience, or if you've majorly screwed up somewhere, it's going to be hard to find a job that pays. The nature of the world, if you ask me. If you agree with that, I don't see how you don't get that your first several jobs are going to be for measly stipends like 5K - 10K per person.

I see where you're going with the 20%, but honestly I don't see that to be the case even in the real world. A programmer who (with a team of other programmers) makes a program that is sold for millions of dollars worth of profit isn't going to see anywhere near 20% of the profit. I don't see why a runner would. Anyone who works for someone else is probably going to get a very small cut of the profit. 20% (and in some cases even 5%) is ridiculously high.

[Sir_Psycho]

My main dispute is with the assumed base price for runs, not with beginning runners making less money than experienced runners. I really like the 20% of the paydata's value on Sir_Psycho's chart, that should be several million (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on most runs. The plans for the new tech? That new program that X was about to release?

I posted 16 different examples of canonical payments. You only select one, the only one that supports your own paradigm. As this argument is purely down to playing style, and my style is dystopian shadowrun, and yours is shadowrun-once-and-retire, I'm going to give up.

[Fuchs]

Canon means nothing compared to what the players&GM need/want to have fun. And that's different from group to group.

[ornot]

The biggest problem I see with Imperator Tippy's logic is that he assumes a seller's market.

However, canon suggests that there is a buyer's market, with many many wannabe Prime Runners. Of course, if all the characters are tweaked and munchkined to the hilt, and each individual is the absolute expert at their respective skillset (and by extension, sucks at everything else), and additionally the players have designed their characters to mesh together perfectly, it may work as the ultimate running team but it still relies on perfect planning and nothing going wrong. 400BP makes pokey characters, but they aren't the elite of the elite; challenge them with anything outside their area of expertise and they'll simply fold, unless they're well rounded, in which case their area of expertise is not as maxed out as it could be.

Consider, also, that in the 6th world life is cheap, so people are more likely to risk their lives for less material reward. You or I may want a hefty wad of cash to embark on a life of crime, but the point of SR is that you don't have a choice in the matter. For whatever reason (addiction, social problems, issues with authority etc) the runners can't/won't go work for a corp. If they do, congratulations, your character just became an NPC, make a new one.

Of course, if you decide that 100K jobs are the way you like to roll, go ahead. At least now I know who is going to run against Tippy's clone army.

Professional Shadowrunners With No Rep Beyond What Their Fixers Heard.

[Fuchs]

I think it needs to be stressed - important is not what canon says, or what seems logical (which are often two different things), but what the players and the GM are comfortable with.

If a player is unhappy because his samurai can't buy new stuff, or the drone rigger can't risk his drones because he cannot afford to buy new ones or the mage and adept players feel underpowered because the rest of the team are byuing delta ware cyber with the millions the made while earning 3 karma, then something is wrong in the game and needs fixing, no matter how much the canon might say the payment is right.

All that matters in the end is that everyone is having fun. That includes the GM - and for a GM, having "Logical payouts" could be crucial for having fun, beyond blancing the game even.

[Crusher Bob]

Then why aren't the hordes of runners doing other, more remunerative activities on their own time? If they can steal cars and make more more than running, then that's what they will be doing. Therefore, running has to pay more that the alternatives. Since the alternatives for a team of the runners skills are pretty lucrative, the pay for running has to be pretty lucrative. In addition, running is very high risk. If you really screw up stealing a car, you do 3-5 for grand theft. If you screw up running, the best you can hope for is a bullet in the head. So the reward for running has to cover the added risks of running as well.

Where the risk of the run is reduced for example, the timetable is reasonable and/or the Johnson provided plenty of intel (which the timetable allows the runners to confirm on their own, then expect the price to go lower.

[samuelbeckett]

Fuchs, couldn't agree more.

However, what Emperor Tippy seems to be saying is that anyone who pays less than 100k for a team of 'runners is just plain doing it wrong. That may not be the intent, but that is how the posts come across.

Now at Emperor Tippy's table, no less than 100k for a run may be the done thing. At someone else's table, it may only be 5k for the run and the runners had better appreciate the Johnson's generosity or they will never run again. To each his own, and it is rather a pointless debate to say otherwise.

The only time it isn't a pointless debate is when we are discussing how the RAW suggests a runner should be paid, as this should determine the 'canon' world's economy when it comes to deniable operations. This would be playing Shadowrun as the Devs intended, and the only sources we have for that are the sources being quoted in this thread i.e. Shadowrun Companion and the SRM. These seem to indicate that a going rate of around 30k to 50k, obviously dependent on the mission.

So can we say Emperor Tippy is wrong to expect 100k per run? No, because at his table, in his group's interpretation of the Shadowrun setting, this is the correct and logical amount for them.

Can we say Emperor Tippy is not playing as per the canon Shadowrun setting? Yup.

[Shiloh]

I posted 16 different examples of canonical payments. You only select one, the only one that supports your own paradigm. As this argument is purely down to playing style, and my style is dystopian shadowrun, and yours is shadowrun-once-and-retire, I'm going to give up.

That section of canon has always pissed me off too. I agree with Tippy in general principle. Shadowrunning gots some serious overheads. It's seriously risky; we're not talking 50 dollars a day plus expenses gumshoe detective stuff. 100k nuyen for a job is in no wise "shadorun once and retire".

The "canon" of 5knuyen for an assassination is an absolute base cost for whacking an unguarded target who isn't aware they're under threat and hasn't any of the skills or resources to do anything to mitigate that threat. It's about what rumour says the cost would be for such a little league hit in the RL aughties. Such a job wouldn't have a timescale (maybe sometime in the next 12 months), there would be no prescription by the "J" on the manner or place of death. Making it look like an accident would cost more. The same sanction against a protected target would add a factor. A shorter timescale would add yet more. The possibility of elements other than The Law taking action afterwards would add further cost.

Starting runners accept 1k runs couriering things across the city. Most of the time such runs are cake walks, and the Johnson is paying peanuts to get monkeys but *adventures* that actually get played out are the runs where the courier runs go bad and the J has hosed the job, either by making an error, or just underestimating something, or by trying to do things on the cheap. Couriering something hot and live and desirable through a combat zone is going to pay *way* more.

The low priced runs are the ones that pay for the Runners' lifestyles, and they shouldn't hit the gaming table unless something goes wrong. If you want to run a couple of "no drama" runs to get a feel for what the team usually do in such runs and then start "in media res" where it's gone all pear-shaped, that'd make sense.

[Fortune]

I would like to note that my earlier comment had nothing to do with money, but was concerning E.T.'s oulook on Reputation.

As to money, every job is different, and those 'big score' runs don't always come along every month. Sometimes even top-notch professionals need to stoop to doing a milk run or three to pay the bills.

[Fuchs]

I would like to note that my earlier comment had nothing to do with money, but was concerning E.T.'s oulook on Reputation.

As to money, every job is different, and those 'big score' runs don't always come along every month. Sometimes even top-notch professionals need to stoop to doing a milk run or three to pay the bills.

Or boost a few cars. But in either case there's the question if such stuff will be played out at all.

[Deimos Masque]

Wow, surprised on how much conversation this suddenly brought. First want to thank everyone for the interesting conversation going on here.

When I started my current game, I had the team be a bit more experienced than the average starting characters. I had them build on 500 BP and then gave them "30 Total Karma" for purposes of starting Reputation. The idea was that they generally worked as couriers and smugglers, smuggling things out of Manhattan and into Manhattan.

The first game session was to be their first big job. I paid them 50k after negotiations. Since then I had been having trouble determining good starting points for it all.

I think that basing it on reputation is definitely a good way to go as is some of the other ideas here. Basically it seems to make perfect sense that the reputation of the runner team = better pay outs. However the higher rep means the team also gets more dangerous runs where more unexpected things can happen. The reputation of the team would actually represent to the potential employer that the team can handle the situation if things go bad.

Granted, not every corp Johnson is going to know the rep of a Shadowrun team, that's why they go through intermediaries and find out "who's the best for the job." This would be based on the rep of the team. If word doesn't get around and the team doesn't get known for the good work they do (the bad work being represented with Notoriety not Street Cred) then they aren't going to get the better paying jobs.

Atleast that's how I see it. Your mileage may vary.

[ArkonC]

The GM needs to make sure he gives a karma boost with that too, giving the tech based characters 100K and the magic based ones 4 karma is asking for unhappy players...
"He got Synthcardium 3 and Reakt, I got 4 out of 6 karma for my magic increase..." Just screams unfair...
So if you do up the pay scale for runners, you need to up the karma scale and things will get high powered very fast...

[Sir_Psycho]

100k nuyen for a job is in no wise "shadorun once and retire".

Several mil is.

Personally, I run pretty paranoid, gritty shadowrun, and I strip pistols, spray C-squared, Change ID's and wear disguises, but it's just a tough fact of life that until you've got a bit of a rep, you can't afford to take the most excessive of the measures yet.

[Shiloh]

100k nuyen for a job is in no wise "shadorun once and retire".

Several mil is.

Not if you have to set up half a dozen good fake IDs each with licences, disguises and the rest, burn rating 6 commlinks and drones by the dozen, abandon or destroy expensive gear that you didn't dare steal for fear of raising your profile too high and get a genewipe afterwards (we're talking for the team, here).

And we weren't talking about a big score like that, we were talking about potential "worthwhile run". At 100k, yoru runners would still have to snaffle several tens of these, plus expenses, and assuming that the "bread-and-butter" runs that don't hit the gaming table keep their lifestyles ticking over.

[Fortune]

Actually, Emperor Tippy mentioned the figure first.

I really like the 20% of the paydata's value on Sir_Psycho's chart, that should be several million on most runs.

[ArkonC]

Actually, Emperor Tippy mentioned the figure first.

Indeed, according to his pay scale, 100K was for beginning runners, with more experienced ones pulling down 200K, 500K and several mil jobs...

[Fuchs]

I do have some trouble balancing the "logical basic security measures" (burning fake SINs and commlinks, maybe even gear after a run) and the supposed payout. Especially fake sins worth a damn (according to agem mechanics) are so expensive that the proposed payouts often make a plan involving a fake sin too expensive for a team.

That simply does not add up - either runners are not supposed to change sins per run, or the payout has to be bigger.

[Shiloh]

I really like the 20% of the paydata's value on Sir_Psycho's chart, that should be several million on most runs.

Actually, Emperor Tippy mentioned the figure first.

I read that as the *paydata* should be worth several million to the J. Though I do agree that 20% is too high on most runs.

Indeed, according to his pay scale, 100K was for beginning runners, with more experienced ones pulling down 200K, 500K and several mil jobs...

So the ones pulling down the big money are *experienced* and have run *more than once*, so there's no "run once then retire" mentality. Neh?

Sure the big jobs net (i.e. after expenses) you several months, maybe a year of luxury lifestyle, but they could take months to set up and further months for the heat to die down/geneclean. "Getting out" takes a lump sum of 10 mill for "luxury forever", plus whatever other safeguards you want to purchase. And it's not always possible to retire. People have things to say about it.

You want something done reliably and deniably, that carries lethal risks you're going to have to pay more than 5k.

[ArkonC]

So the ones pulling down the big money are *experienced* and have run *more than once*, so there's no "run once then retire" mentality. Neh?

You don't consider 100K for your first run big money?

Sure the big jobs net (i.e. after expenses) you several months, maybe a year of luxury lifestyle, but they could take months to set up and further months for the heat to die down/geneclean. "Getting out" takes a lump sum of 10 mill for "luxury forever", plus whatever other safeguards you want to purchase. And it's not always possible to retire. People have things to say about it.

If you're pulling down .2M min every run, retirement isn't far around the corner, according to Tippy's pay scale, experienced runners earn this minimum, so a bread and butter run is another .2 mil...
And next week? Another .2 mil...
And the week after that? ...
Seems like retirement is actually a reasonable option, instead of the dream it is supposed to be...

You want something done reliably and deniably, that carries lethal risks you're going to have to pay more than 5k.

Quote me where I said wetwork any job pays 5K...