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> Need help with Power Plant planning, Please help a nuclear noob
FriendoftheDork
post May 20 2008, 03:24 PM
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Hey guys, I'm playing some more with my old Barrens campaign. Next time the players are gonna take on a power plant sabotage mission, and I frankly have little idea how a large (nuclear) power plant is supposed to be. Since this is classified info in RL, all I got is that they use double fences with SOTA sensors to detect any breech, and armed guards.

2070 would of course have alot better security, with astral and cybered help.

But my main issue remains the actual layout of the place (anyone having made maps?), and where it would make sense to have this or that level of security, as well as how it can be sabotaged without causing a nuclear disaster.

Emergence spoiler:
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cryptoknight
post May 20 2008, 03:32 PM
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http://www.nucleartourist.com/
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Ed_209a
post May 20 2008, 03:56 PM
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Since you don't want to cause a mess, you probably won't even go near the reactor vessel.

For this reason, you can use a map of _any_ large industrial plant. They all look alike to the layman.

There are probably a whole host of pipes, pumps, controllers and machinery that are all critical to safe operation. Damage one of them, and that plant won't be able to safely operate until it is replaced, which can be a while, depending on how large/specialized the part is.

For extra complexity, have the runners damage an on-site spare too.
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Yoan
post May 20 2008, 04:10 PM
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I often ask myself these questions, but I've been spending large quantities of time at Google Earth lately (hopefully my employer doesn't happen to be a DS poster (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ), finding interesting refinery, compounds, sewage treatment centers, etc... that I plan on using in my campaign. As for internal maps, hell, if anybody has anything... SHARE! Factories, plants, generators, whatever.
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Dumori
post May 20 2008, 04:10 PM
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Or you could take out the power cables moving the power from the plant. As i do not know what the aim is for the sabotage mission. but there are a few thing that would need to be considered the loss of cooling would cause some thing like Chernobyl as all power plant as off today need a back up coolig system Chernobyl had one down for matinence and the back up went down. but if you want it to stop delivering power taking out the tranceformers and or the cables would be much m8uch safer for the local area.
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RunnerPaul
post May 20 2008, 04:15 PM
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These are from the ITER research reactor, which is a proof-of-concept design merely intented to "break even" and not actually have any net power generation. As such, there are some important things missing that would be found in a power generating station, such as a steam/water loop between the reactor and a turbine building, and a secondary cooling water system. However, the following images are still a good start:
Cross Section of a Tokamak Fusion Reactor
Typical Site Layout
Cross secton of Tokamak Building
Tokamak Building Exterior
Cryogenic Buildings Exterior
Switchyard
Aerial View
Cooling Towers

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FriendoftheDork
post May 20 2008, 10:39 PM
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Thanks guys, especially Crypto and RunnerPaul (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) These maps and drawings can inspire me to make something of my own a the least.

BTW when I saw your link Crypto I was thinking "wtf?" until I realized it didn't say nuclearterrorist.com (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It seems like a sabotage operation to damage some of the cooling processess in order to force the scientists to halt production at the very least and cost the megas alot of nuyen could work.

Fusion vs Fission? Does fusion even exist in 2070? Anyone remember it mentioned in any SR scources, old or new?
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kzt
post May 20 2008, 10:58 PM
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Don't go inside the plant. The security is stupidly lethal. You'll have spirits dropping in on you like rain, with the people launching fighters to do CAS, etc.

There is about a year lead-time on large transformers. They are insulated by oil. If you punch a hole in them, say by a .50 cal AP round, the transformer will at the very least shut down and cause the plant to drop load. It's likely to catch fire and melt down.

If they are smart and have heavy walls around the transformer I'd still bet that the security on the transformers is a lot less than on the reactors, and you are not nearly as far inside the perimeter. If you want a safer plan, blow down the high tension power lines leaving the plant.
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RunnerPaul
post May 21 2008, 12:16 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ May 20 2008, 06:39 PM) *
Fusion vs Fission? Does fusion even exist in 2070? Anyone remember it mentioned in any SR scources, old or new?

There were tons of references to fusion reactors in 1st and 2nd edition, as supposedly there were a series of serious events at fission plants that finally put the final nails in the coffin for that side of the nuclear power industry. While I don't remember seeing anything off the top of my head from the current edition, I don't think anything has changed drastically enough in the setting to retcon that fact out.

[Edit]
Here we go, from the timeline on the wiki:
  • 2004:
    • Nuclear meltdown at Dungeness in Kent (England) creates a localized irradiated zone.
  • 2011:
    • England's Sizewell B nuclear power station suffers critical meltdown, resulting in a total death count of 17,000.
    • A nuclear power plant in Dounreay, Scotland suffers a meltdown, creating the Scottish Irradiated Zone.
  • 2027:
    • Desperate to alleviate water shortages, the Los Angeles Power and Water Company pioneers the first use of cold fusion technology, which produces fresh water from salt water as a by-product.

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Matsci
post May 21 2008, 06:14 AM
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I know a bit about a nuclear power plant, seeing as my father works at one.

At Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant in CA, the guards are armed with AR-15's , and have some .50 cal sniper rifles. The Plant has a several miles long approach road, with a guardpost at the only connection to a main road.

Reactors themselfs are sealed in Huge reinforced concrete containment domes that are nearly indestructible.

The Nuclear Energy Institute has a large page on plant security.

[img]http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w247/kolboldbard/nuclear_plant_security_zones_1.jpg[/img]
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FriendoftheDork
post May 22 2008, 05:56 PM
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QUOTE (Matsci @ May 21 2008, 08:14 AM) *
I know a bit about a nuclear power plant, seeing as my father works at one.

At Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant in CA, the guards are armed with AR-15's , and have some .50 cal sniper rifles. The Plant has a several miles long approach road, with a guardpost at the only connection to a main road.

Reactors themselfs are sealed in Huge reinforced concrete containment domes that are nearly indestructible.

The Nuclear Energy Institute has a large page on plant security.

[img]http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w247/kolboldbard/nuclear_plant_security_zones_1.jpg[/img]


Nice stuff. I think'll equip the guards with pimped out Ares Alphas and A combo of APDS and EX-EX rounds, full security armor (I don't have Arsenal), Militairy sniper rifles (with APDS), and a few HMGs. In their arsenal they should probably have some rocket launchers as well, just in case.

Sounds good? And the guards all have wired reflexes (level 1). And Sleep Regulators, since security work is often extremely quiet and boring (yeah I'm a sec. guard).
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Dumori
post May 22 2008, 09:10 PM
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I do have to say this again the best bet is to blow the cables or transformer. As knocking out all cooling would cause a meltdown you cant just turn off a plant (at least at this time). Or if you leave both options open it think it could be quite a dilemma when a good 1-3km around the plant becomes irradiated. Chernobyl wasn't just a loss of cooling but the lack of it did cause some huge problems. It took about 34 sec for the meltdown to star after the start of the experiment that caused the Chernobyl disaster you think your runners would be safe by then. There where a lot of factors in Chernobyl. For a good sabotage just shutting down the reactor and then destroying core parts would be a good bet. Im not up to speed no reactor portocals but i suposse if cooling is taken out the computer controls might shutdown automaticaly aslong as they could tell it was unsafe.
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RunnerPaul
post May 23 2008, 12:09 AM
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Oh, and the Fusion vs. Fission issue was touched upon in Catalyst's Developer's Chat for May:

Fuchs: Is there some spell or other magical effect that prevents nuclear bombs from working as intended in the world of Shadowrun? If so,
how can it be detected?

Peter Taylor: Nuclear weapons have the odd habit of malfunctioning or under performing in the Sixth World. Fully half of the weapons
fired or detonated in SR canon have some how had problems or have underperformed. Not only that, but old style
nuclear reactors have been unstable too. Why this may be has never been revealed...


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FriendoftheDork
post May 23 2008, 11:35 PM
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Ok guys, I played this friday. I used som of the nuclear pp drawings (Tokamak fusion reactor, thank you Runner Paul!), and the runner went with the idea to attack the power line towers right outside the plant. Since this facility is by the bay, the runners summoned a force 5 water spirit to use movement power on the whole party, and Trog was going to be used as a mini-torpedo the others could be dragged along by, making for a speedy underwater entrance and exit.

Thing is, they haven't tried to sabotage mission yet, but why of that you'll have to read in my AAR that I will update some day next week or at earliest, this weekend.

Thank you all for contributing, I would have a hard time planning this without your help.
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D Minor
post May 24 2008, 03:01 PM
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Looking forward to it FOD. Are all the old characters coming back?
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RunnerPaul
post May 24 2008, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ May 23 2008, 06:35 PM) *
Ok guys, I played this friday. I used som of the nuclear pp drawings (Tokamak fusion reactor, thank you Runner Paul!)


You're welcome. I know how fickle Google can be sometimes, especially when you're looking up something you need, and not just something out of random curiosity.
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Sandoval Smith
post May 25 2008, 11:29 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ May 20 2008, 05:39 PM) *
Thanks guys, especially Crypto and RunnerPaul (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) These maps and drawings can inspire me to make something of my own a the least.

BTW when I saw your link Crypto I was thinking "wtf?" until I realized it didn't say nuclearterrorist.com (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It seems like a sabotage operation to damage some of the cooling processess in order to force the scientists to halt production at the very least and cost the megas alot of nuyen could work.

Fusion vs Fission? Does fusion even exist in 2070? Anyone remember it mentioned in any SR scources, old or new?

The Renraku arcology had four fusion reactors in its basement.
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FriendoftheDork
post May 25 2008, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE (D Minor @ May 24 2008, 05:01 PM) *
Looking forward to it FOD. Are all the old characters coming back?


Everyone but Uzz, who couldn't come these two sessions. It actually fit as a group of 4 is a unlucky number in Hong Kong, associated with DEATH. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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