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[psionghost]

I have a question regarding using Foci.

Say you have spellcasting of 5 and Magic of 5 and Force 4 Sustaining Foci.

Say i want to sustain, Armor the spell, it says i get a value of B/I armor + per hit on the check. So I roll my 10 dice and say i get however many hits.

How does this work with the sustaining foci? since its force 4 does that limit my hits to say 4 max? or is it whatever i roll? so in theory i could have a force 1 Foci sustaining armor that i scored 6 hits on giving me a +6/+6 armor value or again is it limited to the level of my foci?

[Jackstand]

Yeah. It's limited to the force of the spell. If you want your focus to sustain it, the force has to be four or less. So, then you'd be able to get four, at most.

[psionghost]

Yeah. It's limited to the force of the spell. If you want your focus to sustain it, the force has to be four or less. So, then you'd be able to get four, at most.

Ok thats what i thought, just wanted to make sure is all, thanks for the quick reply.

Ciao

[Jackstand]

No problem.

[Cain]

Now for the question I've never seen answered adequately. What happens if you spend Edge on the test? Your force hasn't changed, but the success cap just went out the window.

[Glyph]

I consider it to be another one of those blind spots in the rules, and would house rule that a sustaining focus can only sustain spellcasting hits equal to its Force. I reason that this is a magical device with a hardwired limit to the energy it can handle, and a spell that has been jacked up beyond its normal limits would be the same as a higher Force spell as far as the focus is concerned.

This is a house rule, though. Currently, there is nothing stopping a mage from buying a Force: 1 sustaining focus, casting a Force: 1 increase reflexes spell on it while spending Edge, and winding up with +3 initiative and +3 IP.

On the other hand, maybe someone spending Edge should be able to get an extra boost from a sustaining focus. After all, they are expending points from a dice pool that refreshes very slowly, to get a boost that can be lost any time they need to deactivate the focus (going through wards, etc.). My proposed house rule is more due to how I see the logic of the game world working, than due to any perceived power imbalance.

[Fortune]

I'd run it like Glyph. Focus Rating limits hits.

[i101]

Aint it that way that a force one spell limits your net hits up to one?! Fe: To cast a successful increase reflexes spell that gains you +3 initiative and +3 IP you would have to get 4 net hits, considering that a force one increase reflexes spell limits ur net hits up to one, you couldnt even get the +1 INI +1 IP boni.

[Jaid]

Aint it that way that a force one spell limits your net hits up to one?! Fe: To cast a successful increase reflexes spell that gains you +3 initiative and +3 IP you would have to get 4 net hits, considering that a force one increase reflexes spell limits ur net hits up to one, you couldnt even get the +1 INI +1 IP boni.

basically yes, though it actually limits hits (not net hits) to 1.

so for example, with a force 1 combat spell if the defender gets a single hit on their spell resistance test, your combat spell will fizzle because you can only have 1 hit total, regardless of how many net hits that might work out to be (in this case 0)

[Glyph]

What Cain brought up, though, was adding Edge to the spellcasting test. And that limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell.

[Jaid]

What Cain brought up, though, was adding Edge to the spellcasting test. And that limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell.

lucky for me i wasn't responding to cain's comment then, but rather i101's comment.

[Fortune]

lucky for me i wasn't responding to cain's comment then, but rather i101's comment.

So was Glyph. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[i101]

@Jaid: Ahh i ment limit hits, and not net hits. My mistake.
@Cain: Spending edge on a force one spell is senseless. The reroll doesnt change nothing, cause the spended edge doenst overrule the max possible limit hits. Therefore it is nothing more then wasting his "luck" for nothing during gametime.

[Fortune]

Spending edge on a force one spell is senseless. The reroll doesnt change nothing, cause the spended edge doenst overrule the max possible limit hits.

That's exactly what spending Edge in this fashion is meant to do ... overrule the maximum allowable hits when casting a Spell.

We are not talking about re-rolls, but spending Edge before making the Spellcasting test.

[i101]

I am aware that spending edge before doing any tests is much powerfuller then afterwards ... but i didnt know that it overrules the maximum allowable hits.

Thats the thing with you immortal elfs ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jackstand]

I'd missed that little tidbit, myself. I need to comb over my books some more. I don't get to play enough to have nearly as much memorized as I'd like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Fortune]

It's buried here ...

A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So if you cast a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits, only 3 of those hits count. In other words, Force serves as a limiter effect on spells—the more oomph you put into the spell, the better you can succeed with it. This limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell.

[Mickle5125]

while we're on the topic of magic foci... which ones can an adept use? I know they can use weapon foci, and most of the others specifically go to spells or spirits, but what about power foci?

[Jackstand]

Nope. Just weapon foci.

Edit: That is, of the main ones. I think they can use some of the ones in Street Magic.

[Cain]

@Cain: Spending edge on a force one spell is senseless. The reroll doesnt change nothing, cause the spended edge doenst overrule the max possible limit hits. Therefore it is nothing more then wasting his "luck" for nothing during gametime.

I wasn't referring to rerolls, although I think that's been established.

Here's more of that I was talking about. Our ridiculously Lucky mage has a 5 in spellcasting (manipulation), and a Magic of 5. However, he could only afford a rating 1 sustaining focus. In the middle of a fight, he decides to cast Armor, but doesn't want to risk Drain. So, he casts a Force 1 Armor spell (either on himself or the team troll, it doesn't matter), spends Edge, and rolls 20 exploding dice. With that amount of exploding dice, let's hypothesize that he gets 10 successes. The success cap has been removed, so he now is sustaining an Armor spell that provides 10 bonus points of Ballistic/Impact. The spell is then transferred into the sustaining focus, so he loses the sustaining penalty.

See the problem here? The weak spot with what Glyph is suggesting is that assuming the same spell should nerf itself once transferred to the focus. That's not exactly balanced, smacks of GM protectionism, and would only serve to piss the player off (since he could accomplish the same thing if he ate the sustaining penalty.

[Fortune]

while we're on the topic of magic foci... which ones can an adept use? I know they can use weapon foci, and most of the others specifically go to spells or spirits, but what about power foci?

Yes, according to the latest from Synner, Adepts can indeed bond Power Foci. They are only useful in tests that actually include the Magic Attribute though, so are of somewhat limited use to most Adepts.

[Fortune]

See the problem here?

No.

The weak spot with what Glyph is suggesting is that assuming the same spell should nerf itself once transferred to the focus. That's not exactly balanced, smacks of GM protectionism, and would only serve to piss the player off (since he could accomplish the same thing if he ate the sustaining penalty.

I don't agree with this at all. It could simply be that Foci are specifically designed to hold or otherwise manipulate a finite level of 'power', and that spells with effects that exceed that 'power' are reduced accordingly.

[Glyph]

The weak spot with what Glyph is suggesting is that assuming the same spell should nerf itself once transferred to the focus. That's not exactly balanced, smacks of GM protectionism, and would only serve to piss the player off (since he could accomplish the same thing if he ate the sustaining penalty.

My proposed house rule is due to the fact that I don't see how a magical device with a hardwired limit would have trouble with a Force: 2 spell, but be fine with a Force: 1 spell that is chanelling enough energy to be a Force: 10 spell. It would be pretty botched as "GM protectionism", since the mage can still use Edge in conjunction with things like quickening, or spell sustaining by an ally spirit.

[Cain]

I don't agree with this at all. It could simply be that Foci are specifically designed to hold or otherwise manipulate a finite level of 'power', and that spells with effects that exceed that 'power' are reduced accordingly.

First of all, no other focus limits the number of successes you can get. If I spend Edge with a spellcasting focus, even though it's handling a finite amount of power, it doesn't alter the success cap. I can cast a force 5 or force 10 spell with the same focus, and the focus has zero effect on the result.

Second, it's rather poor form to resort to in-game technobabble to restrict a game-breaking effect. House rules, or a discussion with the player after it's proved to be an issue, tend to be more effective.

[Fortune]

I fail to see the game-breaking effect. I am also of the opinion that Glyph's (and of course my own) view on this matter is in fact canon. If it turns out that it isn't canon, it doesn't bother me in the slightest to make a house rule (using whatever rationale I choose) to remedy any perceived problem.