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knasser
post May 23 2008, 07:56 AM
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This is a spin off from both tisoz's fiction competition and Fistandantilus4.0's comments in the Novels Poll thread. A while ago I suggested the idea of a new Shadowrun anthology but it didn't sound promising that Catalyst would be interested at the time. But there's a lot to be said for the idea. Shadowrun now has a backstory that verges on epic and the fine details of the setting are hard to get across in a game. The perfect way of passing the setting knowledge on to new players and GM's is via good quality setting fiction, of which there hasn't been much published in recent years whilst a lot of the older stuff is out of date.

A novel is a large undertaking for an author, and consequently a somewhat risky proposition for a publisher. This is mitigated a bit when you have a pool of authors writing shorter fiction and, whilst novels have their own merits, there are strong advantages to a collection of short fiction. You get a breadth of styles and subject matter and it is easy to dip into in the case of GM's and players trying to get a quick feel for the setting in an enjoyable way.

About ten authors writing ten-thousand word stories would result in a novel-sized book (Terry Pratchett size, not Tom Clancy). Ten-thousand words is also a reasonable size to tell a short story and a reasonable amount of work for employed adults or busy students to take on. Even if sold as PDF only, it would probably be a worthwhile project, but a book could be quite profitable.

I would contribute a story or potentially a novella to such a project. I would potentially offer editing services... potentially. Tisoz has proved just what a wealth of talent is out there and believe me, with additional time and polish, that talent would be of more than professional quality. Trust me on this.

Is there anyone else here who would be interested in such a project? If so, sign up below. It's not a commitment, it's a means of making this happen. If you have any previous work published professionally or otherwise, mention it, but if you're merely enthusiastic and believe you have talent, just say "I want to be discovered" in a girly starlet voice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Questions? Support? Please post!
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Chrysalis
post May 23 2008, 10:05 AM
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I am a professional proofreader and translator. One of the ways in which I can keep my writing muscles going, is that of either editing or writing. I would have to say that if given the choice I would prefer to be working as an editor than as a writer.

Excerpts of my work are available on request.


-Chrysalis
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ornot
post May 23 2008, 10:38 AM
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I think this is a great plan Knasser.

"I want to be discovered!"
/girly starlet voice

Actually I'm kinda busy working on my Thesis and attendant lab work to offer original writing. I would be willing to offer help as a proofreader or editor, although I've no professional experience outside of academic papers, which probably ain't too pertinent.
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knasser
post May 23 2008, 10:46 AM
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Then we so far have three editors and one writer. Heh! It wont be a very long book... but it will be good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Actually, that's one of the advantages of an anthology. If you have thirteen writers and one doesn't deliver, you can perhaps cover it with a substitute writer or a even drop a story. At any rate, thanks for the responses so far. This isn't the Definite Commitment thread, remember, it's just the Expression of Interest thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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kanislatrans
post May 23 2008, 11:45 AM
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Sounds great to me! I have a story started that I think may fit the bill. Count me in!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Excellent idea. If we can get it together on our own then those wonderful folks at Catalyst would be crazy not to at least look it over. How many times do you have a practically complete book just dropped on your desk? and with the talent I saw in Tisoz's contest it should be incredible.
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Backgammon
post May 23 2008, 12:02 PM
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Not that this isn't a good idea one way or another, but where exactly do you stand with Catalyst on this? Have you been in contact with them? Did they show a sign interest? Usually they want to to pitch, and they to accept, any idea well before you actually write it. And if Catalyst says no, are there legal issues to going ahead anyway? I'm guessing it would be ok as long as there are no charges for the completed PDF.
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samuelbeckett
post May 23 2008, 12:37 PM
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Count me in as a writer, subject to RL not intruding too much. Also, are you planning to set some themes for the writers to work to, or leaving it as a free-for-all?

As to my publishing history - I have a few very nice rejection letters for novel length fiction, but nothing in print (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

And to echo Backgammon's point, I am sure the legalities will need to be covered one way or another, so may be worth discussions with Catalyst prior to work being done...

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GrepZen
post May 23 2008, 12:43 PM
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Excellent idea...this could actually be taken a step further and done as a bi-monthly / quarterly serial like Baen's (Grantville Gazette. Its on it's 18th volume with additions of cannon books by noted authors. I've certainly shelled out some bucks for the Gazette and would probably do so again for somthing similar in an SR flavor.
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Kithran
post May 23 2008, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE (Backgammon @ May 23 2008, 01:02 PM) *
Not that this isn't a good idea one way or another, but where exactly do you stand with Catalyst on this? Have you been in contact with them? Did they show a sign interest? Usually they want to to pitch, and they to accept, any idea well before you actually write it. And if Catalyst says no, are there legal issues to going ahead anyway? I'm guessing it would be ok as long as there are no charges for the completed PDF.


No, no no. Whether or not you are charging is totally irrelevant when it comes to avoiding legal issues. If you are using the Shadowrun universe in such a way that it is recognisably Shadowrun then you are infringing on copyright if you don't get permission. Note the fiction competition _did_ have permission by virtue of the fact all the material was posted on the dumpshock forums and wasn't available elsewhere. If you are going to produce a collection of short stories and distribute them you will have to get permission.

Kithran - not a lawyer but has some experience with some of the problems that relate to game ip.
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ornot
post May 23 2008, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE (Kithran @ May 23 2008, 01:44 PM) *
No, no no. Whether or not you are charging is totally irrelevant when it comes to avoiding legal issues. If you are using the Shadowrun universe in such a way that it is recognisably Shadowrun then you are infringing on copyright if you don't get permission. Note the fiction competition _did_ have permission by virtue of the fact all the material was posted on the dumpshock forums and wasn't available elsewhere. If you are going to produce a collection of short stories and distribute them you will have to get permission.

Kithran - not a lawyer but has some experience with some of the problems that relate to game ip.


I think you're quite right, except for the line I highlighted above.

Dumpshock is not affiliated with Catalyst in any official capacity that I'm aware of, so presumably infringement of IP (incidentally this does not mean initiative pass (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) would still count with regards to SR fic posted on the forum. However, I'm sure we can count on the good folk at Catalyst to exercise some discretion when it comes to such things, although I'm pretty sure they would have final say in whether an actual book gets published or not.
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Blade
post May 23 2008, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE
WizKids, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. WizKids, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.
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knasser
post May 23 2008, 01:41 PM
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Okay - we're into the legal stuff already. I'll clarify where I'm coming from with this thread a little more.

I'm not intending this to be something solely online. I want the participation or lead of Catalyst for an actual product. I considered approaching them formally last year with such a project. I have no doubt that I can find the talent amongst people here and privately to produce ten to thirteen good quality stories. And with suitable nudging and a more formal arrangement, I'm confidant I could get them to actually produce for the most part which is another task in and of itself. (I would provision for a few drop outs in those involved).

I broached the project with someone who had worked in Shadowrun fiction before and they were pessimistic about the chance of Catalyst taking on such a project themself at that time and very definite on the likelihood of allowing a third party (myself) to publish. To be clear, I would have considered financing such a project, but it seemed unlikely an independent licence from Wizkids for a one off project would be either likely or cost-effective. However, Catalyst now seem to be making [very small] noises about producing fiction once more. I am no longer much interested in managing such a project myself (though I suppose I might consider it), but I wish to encourage Catalyst to take it up. It is a good idea for reasons stated in the first post - broader appeal than a novel, immediate availability of talent and avoiding the risk of tying a financial investment to one irreplaceable author. And we all know how awkward authors can be, yes? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I didn't explicitly state the aims of this thread at first, because the moment you say something is possible, people appear to tell you that it isn't. It seemed the best first step in showing something could be done would be to do it. But that said, my aims with this thread are actually two-fold: Firstly to gather interest in such a project, show that it is feasible and emphasise to Catalyst the merit of the idea over a novel (which will take forever and a week with Catalyst). Secondly, to encourage some of the very talented people around Dumpshock or elsewhere to step forward for such a project. That latter step is vital.

I hope that clears up where I'm coming from and also encourages others to come on board with me. tisoz's thread should be a wake-up call for just how much talent there is out there and an official, marginally paid contract and serious editing would bring about any final polish that might be needed to turn that talent into professional work. If people would be willing to submit a short story or even a double-length novella-type piece if feeling reliable and talented, just sign up here. It is after all, the Expression of Interest thread. By expressing interest, we may make it happen.

Peace,

Khadim.
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Chrysalis
post May 23 2008, 02:08 PM
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As I said, I would be willing to work as an editor. I have over two years professional experience in editing work and I have written guides on editorial processes.

My professional qualifications include a Major in English language, with minors in Anglo-Saxon studies, linguistics and teacher training in English as a second language. Previous editing work with RPGs comprises of me being the main editor and writer for Edgerunner, a fanzine for Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0.

As it is summer and work is near non-existent during the summer months, I am offering my services for free.

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FrankTrollman
post May 23 2008, 07:57 PM
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To give an idea of how much time and effort are involved in such a project: consider that each page in Open Office is going to be a tad over 500 to 750 words depending upon how "dense" it is (dialog has much shorter paragraphs and subsequently a lot less words per page). A 10,000 word document is probably going to set you back around 20 pages including formatting and everything.

You can probably write to fill a page on your computer in a day, meaning that you're looking at about 3 weeks of actual writing. While you can easily enough crank out a thousand words, or even a few thousand words, it is flat unreasonable to expect that your fiction is going to come out in continuous prose all the way through. You'll want to, and have to take a few days to go back and rewrite segments you've already done. The actual writing and rewriting is going to put you back about a month of real time unless and until you get a handle on a quality hack writing skill.

The next thing to think of is pacing. Those fiction segments on the first page of every Shadowrun supplement chapter are a bit less than 500 words. And they are admittedly quite telegraphic. Each is a vignette and it covers about one "scene." A 10k writing segment could theoretically be made of 20 such vignettes, but then it would be Van Helsing in written form. There wants to be a plot rather than just a rollercoaster ride of "twenty awesome things." Remember that dialog eats word count like you wouldn't believe. Describing action is about 6:1 in length to having characters in the story talk aout what action is taking place.

A 10k story is pretty short. To put it in perspective of how short a 10k story is, here is 10k from an essay about Dungeons and Dragons:

[ Spoiler ]


That's not the whole essay or anything, it just happens to be 10 thousand words. It's too long to just make a cool vignette. Any scene will have become tiresome by the time you are ten thousand words in. But it's not really long enough to complete a thought. That D&D essay in its entirety is several times that length, and it doesn't have dialog in it.

-Frank
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knasser
post May 23 2008, 08:48 PM
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For a bit more perspective, Dark King was 5,000 words. It took me a few weeks to right the bulk of it in my spare time. I'd been thinking it over for a while before that so I had a pretty good idea of the structure, and then it probably took me another couple of weeks to finish it up. I can work pretty quickly, but that was about the amount of work I put in for it. It's hard to turn that into actual hours. but I'd say perhaps fifteen hours for the actual writing and another three or four hours making edits. So yes,a ten-thousand word would actually come to around an actual working week I guess. But if you're into your writing, it can go by pretty quickly. It's amazing how much time some people rack up watching television, surfing the net, sleeping and other redundant activities. I've just done a word count on Carding Estates and it comes out to just over 11,000 words. I kind of figure that if people will put that sort of effort in for a forum contest (albeit a good one), then we can see that sort of effort for an actual product and your name in print.

Ten thousand words was my guideline. It's easier to talk about something when there's an actual number sometimes. Some stories could be longer or shorter than that, so long as it all balanced out to around the right page count. You're right that it can be harder to write a longer story than it is a short vignette. But conversely it can be very hard to compress your work down to short story length. I had tremendous difficulty getting Dark King down to the length I wanted it and a lot of ideas and some parts I'd already written got binned. I was very sad about that. Going up to ten-thousand words actually offers a degree of freedom, too. I'm not sure your essay actually shows the point you want, btw, as it looks pretty long to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But yes - it's absolutely a good thing to have an idea of what you're taking on when you go into something like this. But speaking personally, I would be willing to put in thirty hours or so for the sake of being published in a Shadowrun anthology. Some late nights here, a few Sunday mornings there. It mounts up once you get started. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Btw, Frank - is there any chance you would be interested in contributing? I've heard you're a nuisance to work with but the end product has always been impressive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Peace,

Khadim.
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ludomastro
post May 23 2008, 10:31 PM
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I will say that I am interested in the anthology. Both reading as well as writing.

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By the way Frank, nice essay.
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FrankTrollman
post May 24 2008, 07:12 AM
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Remember that it's more than just the 30+ hours of primary writing that you are looking forward to. For a story of this magnitude, you'll want to do some background research. The story will be substantial enough that it will touch on world issues that you'll have to check. But beyond that, since this is supposed to be an SR4 book, it will want to use SR4 characters. That will take a lot of checking, because these characters already have a "voice" of sorts from the published books and some of them are getting voice alterations in subsequent books.

And finally, you won't get the full benefit of distributed networks as far as writing speed, because the anthology as a whole will want to have the entire team on the same page as regards theme and probably skeletal overplot as well. You can write a perfectly nice story of eroticism and guilt about a man who goes to a bar in Trans Polar territory after he brought in a cargo container of maple syrup, picks up on and has sex with a hot Inuit woman who doesn't speak his language, and then discovers to his horror that she can't speak English because she's actually 2 years old and really a seal. But if the next story up is one about gangers in Amazonia fighting Romance of the Three Kingdoms style for sections of Metropaulo that the government has long since lost control of - you'll find that the book as a whole won't have a lot of fans. Gothic horror and military science fiction go together like cookies and ass.

The time you spend bending the prospective book into a cohesive whole will feel like wasted effort while you are doing it, you'll be spending actual time and energy while the book gets shorter rather than longer. But it will pay off in the finished product. People will leave the project because they cannot bring themselves to write something that fits with the direction of the book, but that is better than the alternative of having the book be driftless.

The Spirit Chapter of Street Magic is about 15 thousand words. The Ends of the Matrix is 26 thousand words. Shooting an Elephant by George Orwell is 3,283 words. The Cask of Amontillado by Poe is 2,495 words. The Fall of the House of Usher (also by Poe) is 7,226 words.

-Frank
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knasser
post May 24 2008, 08:05 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 24 2008, 08:12 AM) *
Remember that it's more than just the 30+ hours of primary writing that you are looking forward to. For a story of this magnitude, you'll want to do some background research. The story will be substantial enough that it will touch on world issues that you'll have to check.


That may or may not be the case. Certainly I didn't feel the need to do research for Dark King. The only research I recall was looking up what voltage the brain operates on so I could make a line about the P-Fix accurate. Doubling the length of the story would not have necessarily changed that.

But beyond that, since this is supposed to be an SR4 book, it will want to use SR4 characters. That will take a lot of checking, because these characters already have a "voice" of sorts from the published books and some of them are getting voice alterations in subsequent books.

QUOTE
And finally, you won't get the full benefit of distributed networks as far as writing speed, because the anthology as a whole will want to have the entire team on the same page as regards theme and probably skeletal overplot as well. You can write a perfectly nice story of eroticism and guilt about a man who goes to a bar in Trans Polar territory after he brought in a cargo container of maple syrup, picks up on and has sex with a hot Inuit woman who doesn't speak his language, and then discovers to his horror that she can't speak English because she's actually 2 years old and really a seal. But if the next story up is one about gangers in Amazonia fighting Romance of the Three Kingdoms style for sections of Metropaulo that the government has long since lost control of - you'll find that the book as a whole won't have a lot of fans.


See, I disagree with that utterly. One of the strengths of an anthology, and I've read a lot of anthologies, is the breadth of styles and tones. You're not going to please everyone all of the time and you might as well play to your strengths and say: "here's a variety of different takes on Shadowrun." The setting lends itself to a lot of different types of stories, why limit ourselves? Besides which, trying to turn someone's Gothic Romance into an Action Movie or vice versa, only results in a piss poor result which ever way you go. This is why Hollywood produces so many crap movies - their marketing departments insist on everything going for every demographic at once and the end result is that whatever talent and individuality the writers had is lost when a comedy side-kick is bolted on, the female hero has to have a female villain written in so she can have a final side fight while the males are doing the serious stuff (:rolleyes:) or whatever. This isn't just my opinion. If you think readers can't handle and enjoy a variety of styles in one book, then you have too low an opinion of people. Look at tisoz's competition. People agreed that the standards were very high and they liked nearly all of the stories, yet those stories were hugely variable in style and content. The variation was an asset, not a weakness.

QUOTE
The Spirit Chapter of Street Magic is about 15 thousand words. The Ends of the Matrix is 26 thousand words. Shooting an Elephant by George Orwell is 3,283 words. The Cask of Amontillado by Poe is 2,495 words. The Fall of the House of Usher (also by Poe) is 7,226 words.


I'm not sure where you're going with that.
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Adam
post May 24 2008, 08:37 AM
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I thought David was going to post along these lines tonight, but he hasn't yet, so I'm going to jump in and say that before you do a ton of organizational work on this project, you should talk to the relevant person at Catalyst Game Labs [at that time, that would be Loren -- you can reach him through me, as his email address isn't public]. Bear in mind that Loren has direct experience compiling and editing shared world fiction anthologies, and it's part of his job to guide our fiction lines. He may want an anthology with a wide variety of styles, or he may have in mind something more homogenous or built around a certain theme/event -- both approaches are valid. One thing I guarantee you: if Catalyst produces a Shadowrun anthology, Loren [or someone he hand-picks] will be at the helm.

Catalyst Game Labs is going to be doing new Shadowrun and Classic BattleTech fiction; we're looking at authors for our initial releases now, and I know Loren has already talked to some. When it comes time for us to expand from that pool -- and I don't know exactly when that will be -- we'll be posting a call for authors. Until then, I'd advise that actually building an anthology of original fiction to hand as a whole to Catalyst may not be the best use for potential authors' time.
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CanRay
post May 24 2008, 12:22 PM
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Well, I better keep practicing my writing, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *Points to Sig*
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ludomastro
post May 24 2008, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (Adam @ May 24 2008, 04:37 AM) *
<SNIP>
One thing I guarantee you: if Catalyst produces a Shadowrun anthology, Loren [or someone he hand-picks] will be at the helm.


That is more than fair.

QUOTE (Adam)
Catalyst Game Labs is going to be doing new Shadowrun and Classic BattleTech fiction; we're looking at authors for our initial releases now, and I know Loren has already talked to some. When it comes time for us to expand from that pool -- and I don't know exactly when that will be -- we'll be posting a call for authors. Until then, I'd advise that actually building an anthology of original fiction to hand as a whole to Catalyst may not be the best use for potential authors' time.


This is good news on both fronts. I would love to read some new fiction. Speaking for myself, I hadn't planned to put pen to paper on the anthology until I got the nod from someone in an official capacity.
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knasser
post May 24 2008, 06:01 PM
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@Adam I will stress this for the third and final time. It is not my intention to collect story submissions. I haven't asked for any. I haven't suggested to potential authors that they send me anything. I want Catalyst to produce an anthology. It makes sense and it would be a very useful product for introducing people into the setting, which is now so vast that I could talk to a player for an hour (actually have done) and still not really get it all across to them. Plus, it would be great fun to read.

What I am doing is trying to drive that message home and to find capable writers who might be interested. We've already seen evidence that there's a lot of new talent around here. If Loren put out a call for proposals for an anthology I would be extremely happy (and time allowing, I would send one myself). That's what should be done, imo. I tried for a year to get Dark King on the Shadowrun web-fiction site. It was accepted by two separate editors and it still never happened. I'd done all this work to write it and it seemed like I was having to force it into your hands. I spoke to others who had had similar experiences with that particular editor. Eventually I lost my enthusiasm for writing Shadowrun fiction, until last month when tisoz rekindled it by running that competition.

So again, I'll make it clear - I'm not organising an anthology. I've have stated that clearly from the first post. Even the title makes that very clear. I've worked a 47 hour week so far and I'll probably work another eight by Sunday night and the last thing I want to do is start going through proposals. What I'm saying, and I hope any other potential authors who post in agreement in this thread are saying, is that there are people out here clamouring to try and give you people something,

If you ask for it.

Khadim.






p.s. I'd like to send a proposal if there is going to be an anthology, please. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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knasser
post May 24 2008, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE (Alex @ May 24 2008, 06:55 PM) *
Speaking for myself, I hadn't planned to put pen to paper on the anthology until I got the nod from someone in an official capacity.


*Gives up explaining what he was trying to do here.

Turns off computer and goes home*
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Backgammon
post May 24 2008, 08:53 PM
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... Why don't you just run a fiction contest like tisoz then? Join forces, expand to other forums, get bigger prizes. Start a dedicated fiction website, etc.

Promoting fan fiction and trying to get a published anthology are two very seperate things.

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Jaid
post May 25 2008, 06:20 PM
Post #25


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he's not trying to generate fan fiction. he's basically testing the waters so that if there *is* a lot of interest in such a project being made, he can go to catalyst and say "hey look, there's a lot of interest in this kind of product, and here's a list of people who would like to work on it, you should do something with that".

in other words, he's trying to get together enough evidence that a shadowrun anthology would sell well and would be easy to get rolling that catalyst will be more likely to decide to make one, as far as i can tell.
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