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> Two Swords better than one?, New player question...
Phist
post May 24 2008, 08:16 AM
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Hey I'm new to the setting, having trouble finding clear rules on two weapon fighting. I know that you get -2 for the off hand and you split your dice pool, but what's the advantage of fighting with two pistols, or two blades, as opposed to just one?
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AngelisStorm
post May 24 2008, 08:22 AM
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I'll start with the easier one. The advantage to fighting with two pistols is that you get more shots off. Since pistols can only fire finitely fast, you can get twice as many shots off with two pistols. Probably more importantly, if you have a SS weapon in each hand, it means you can still get off 2 shots a phase (and both with smart link bonuses, since your not firing them at the same time).

Two HtH weapons is... different. Basically check out Arsenal. There are some really sick combos you can pull off with two melee weapons, though you won't have max reach if you do it (and your still splitting the dice pool).
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Phist
post May 24 2008, 08:35 AM
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Man... I just started pulling through the core book.. I wont have time to touch Arsenal. Hell, I dont even think I have access to it.

So there are no core bonuses to two H2H weapon fighting?
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hobgoblin
post May 24 2008, 09:28 AM
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nope, the split dice pool do not even officially apply for hth in the main book...
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Snow_Fox
post May 24 2008, 02:16 PM
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In SR3 you get minus' for having two hand guns. and it makes sense. sure you're throwing more lead but trust me it's difficult to aim. you keep switiching between guns OR you are just at the 'spray and pray' school of shooting.

Wyatt Erp wrote that he had more faith in a single well aimed shot than a half dozen fired quickly. From personal experience, I think the Marshal knew what he was talking about.
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Aaron
post May 24 2008, 02:33 PM
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Two-Weapon Fighting. The martial arts maneuver, I mean.
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MarCazm
post May 24 2008, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ May 24 2008, 10:22 AM) *
I'll start with the easier one. The advantage to fighting with two pistols is that you get more shots off. Since pistols can only fire finitely fast, you can get twice as many shots off with two pistols. Probably more importantly, if you have a SS weapon in each hand, it means you can still get off 2 shots a phase (and both with smart link bonuses, since your not firing them at the same time).


Actually you get no bonuses through smartlink or laser sights if firing two handed.
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Larme
post May 24 2008, 04:14 PM
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Dual fisting has a couple uses:

Dual Warhawks - two single shot pistols = one semi-auto pistol with double the cylinder space. Though with Arsenal you can mod them to be semi-auto anyway, so it's not that great.

Dual SMGs - fire two long bursts per turn, one from each gun. Or you could fire two full bursts at the same time if you have cyberhand gyros and tricked out guns, and totally hose someone.

Gun and sword (club, spur, etc) - fire at people in ranged combat, but if anyone gets close you get no penalty to defense because you can parry with your off-hand weapon, and use it to counter-attack. Could also work with dual melee hardened guns.

Two swords (or any melee weapon) - the Two Weapon Fighting maneuver from Arsenal allows a martial artist to go on full defense with one melee weapon without spending an action at all, giving them essentially a perfect defense while they're free to cut people up at the same time with the other hand.
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Zaranthan
post May 24 2008, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (MarCazm @ May 24 2008, 10:01 AM) *
Actually you get no bonuses through smartlink or laser sights if firing two handed.

That restriction is specific to firing two weapons with one action. AngelisStorm is talking about using your first Simple action to fire one gun, then using your second to fire the other gun. No splitting your dice pool, and you get to keep your smartlink (or similar) bonus. No added recoil on the second shot, either.
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tsuyoshikentsu
post May 24 2008, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE (Zaranthan @ May 24 2008, 12:44 PM) *
No added recoil on the second shot, either.


Mais non, je pens. Don't you take penalties for every bullet fired in an action phase?
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Fortune
post May 24 2008, 10:02 PM
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Yes you do. Cumulative recoil penalties apply throughout the phase, regardless of which gun incurred the penalty.
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hobgoblin
post May 24 2008, 10:27 PM
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so if a single shot gun and a single shot gun is fired in the same phase, the second one will take a -1 to the dice pool?
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Fortune
post May 24 2008, 10:33 PM
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Yes. Barring any form of recoil compensation, the shooter would suffer a penalty to the second shot fired in any one particular phase, regardless of whether the he was using one weapon or two.
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Daier Mune
post May 25 2008, 01:46 AM
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two weapon fighting requires alot of skill and/or gear investment, but it can be pretty damn effective. an adept with two weapon foci can slice a poor chump to ribbons with a double strike + finishing move combo. you won't have the flat out range or damage that a nodachi or monowhip could deliver.

two machine pistols or submachineguns can lay down a ton of surpressing fire and wide bursts, but again, you won't be doing alot of damage. if you're going for SS or SA pistols, then i'd say vary the ammo type. tazer and a heavy pistol, or one gun loaded with Ex/Ex and one with gel or flechette.
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PlatonicPimp
post May 25 2008, 05:52 AM
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Also from arsenal, you can give your smartlinked guns pilot programs, allowing them to do their own shooting. So if you had two drone-guns, you simply need to point them in the right general direction and let their dice pools and actions do the work. This is a little bit of a grey area, but I'd say that the guns aquire and fire at targets like any other drone, but recoil penalties are applied as they would be for the character ie: -1 per bullet, double uncompensated recoil when two weapon fighting. This works just as well with underbarrel weapon mods.

One further note on two weapon fighting, in any form: No one ever said you had to split the dice pools evenly. I had one player in a game who liked to use two pistols in SA. She'd put only one of her dice in the first shot, the rest in the second. The second shot forces a -1 to the opponent's dodge, so basically it's -1 to each of their pools for the cost of a bullet. Then the next simple action was split the same way, 1 die on the third shot and all the others into the fourth. This put the opponent at -2 and -3, respectively. There was never any intention for the shots from the one gun to do damage, only to keep racking up penalties to the opponent's dodge. Since ranged dodge is generally reaction only, -3 really, really hurts. It can make it impossible for an unaugmented, average human to dodge at all. Anyway, if your dice pool to hit is greater than your opponent's dice pool to dodge, reducing their die pool by 1 die is worth taking a die off yours.
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Ears
post May 25 2008, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ May 25 2008, 05:52 AM) *
One further note on two weapon fighting, in any form: No one ever said you had to split the dice pools evenly. I had one player in a game who liked to use two pistols in SA. She'd put only one of her dice in the first shot...


She loved to roll critical glitches?
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tech2.0
post May 25 2008, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (Ears @ May 25 2008, 09:48 AM) *
She loved to roll critical glitches?


only a 1 in 6 chance, I'll take that.
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PlatonicPimp
post May 25 2008, 07:29 PM
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She loved to avoid critical glitches by spending edge. I'm not saying that's the best use of edge there is, but that's what she did. The usual tactic was 4 shots from her followed by burst fire from another party member. They just coordinated to make sure that their targets had no dodge dice left.
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Glyph
post May 25 2008, 09:18 PM
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Two ranged weapons give you a variety of options - shoot two single-shot revolvers to effectively make them the equivalent of a semi-auto weapon, switch between two guns firing two different kinds of ammo, split your dice pool unevenly to make the target get a penalty to dodge the main attack, split your dice pool equally when facing mooks that you need to mow down quickly, and have double the ammo before you run out of bullets.

A ranged weapon and a melee weapon let you switch smoothly from ranged to melee combat.

Two melee weapons, unfortunately, are not of much use until you pick up Arsenal - then they can be deadly.
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Larme
post May 26 2008, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ May 24 2008, 05:33 PM) *
Yes. Barring any form of recoil compensation, the shooter would suffer a penalty to the second shot fired in any one particular phase, regardless of whether the he was using one weapon or two.


I don't think so. Read literally, you're right. But you aren't, in fact.

It says "The first burst fired in an Action Phase inflicts a �€“2 recoil modifier, the second inflicts an additional �€“3 recoil (neutralized by recoil compensation, if any)."

So literally, two bursts fired from different guns would count as -2 and then -3. But you'll notice, not only does it not specify "from the same gun," it doesn't even specify "from the same person." So reading literally as you are, you'd have to count bursts fired by other people during the same action phase.

But more importantly, it doesn't say anything about a third burst or a fourth burst. And that's when your theory falls apart. Are the third and fourth bursts free of recoil, because they aren't specifically mentioned? I sorta don't think so. So you could read it literally to get your interpretation, but that would also lead to dual fisting being recoil-free for the third or fourth burst you fire in a phase. I think it's much more sensible to count one gun's recoil penalties only against targetting with that gun.

Also, your interpretation would seem to point to an anomaly where recoil compensation on my left-hand gun applies even though I'm only firing the right-hand one. Recoil does not spill over between weapons, and there's no reason why it should, nor is that the only plausible reading of the text.
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Fortune
post May 26 2008, 02:18 AM
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I'm not quote sure what you are reading, but I am going by this quote.

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 141)
Attacker Using a Second Firearm
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun attacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.


Can you provide any quote that backs up your opinion that recoil 'does not spill over between weapons'?
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Jackstand
post May 26 2008, 02:24 AM
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QUOTE (BBB pp. 141-2)
Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.


Yarr! Beaten!
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Larme
post May 26 2008, 02:25 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ May 25 2008, 10:18 PM) *
Can you provide any quote that backs up your opinion that recoil 'does not spill over between weapons'?



Mmnope. I didn't remember that paragraph's existence, I was just looking at the base recoil rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)
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