[X] My Assistant

[kzt]

and the hotsim hacker can use the same amount of agents.

the fact remains that sometimes, "eventually" succeeding isn't an option. if i am a street sam who is relying on your ability to take over the security systems for the building i'm about to physically break into, i'm not going to accept the assurance that "eventually" those sentry guns will stop shooting me.

In the case you have you are essentially allowing the AR hacker to run around with a real gun with real bullets that will kill you, and your team has netf guns, which if you shoot the other guy really good he has to go run back and tag his base, then comes back and shoot more real bullets at you. How would this work out?

in a hacker vs hacker fight, there is no "eventually". there is only 1 active account for that hacker at any given time. unless he has already hacked in with each and every separate commlink, and logged in with each and every commlink (generating a lot of traffic and looking suspicious, especially if he's bringing along an agent horde as has been suggested... not to mention now instead of facing 1 detection test or 1 series of tests if he hacked in on the fly, he's now facing one per commlink in the hackastack) by the time he gets hacked into the node again he is facing a node on active alert with all of the bad stuff that entails.

Why are you assuming that the guy trying to stop you from hacking a computer system that doesn't belong to you isn't supposed to be there? He and his agents don't have to hack into anything, they LIVE there. Hence, he won't get attacked by ice, etc. And 21 black hammers per turn will tend to help them stop you.

[Jaid]

In the case you have you are essentially allowing the AR hacker to run around with a real gun with real bullets that will kill you, and your team has netf guns, which if you shoot the other guy really good he has to go run back and tag his base, then comes back and shoot more real bullets at you. How would this work out?


Why are you assuming that the guy trying to stop you from hacking a computer system that doesn't belong to you isn't supposed to be there? He and his agents don't have to hack into anything, they LIVE there. Hence, he won't get attacked by ice, etc. And 21 black hammers per turn will tend to help them stop you.

if the agent army and the unkillable target are on the defense, that just makes hotsim even more important, because if that's what's gonna be waiting for you in the event that you fail/are detected, it simply becomes even more important that you don't fail or get detected... which makes the +2 dice a whole lot more desireable.

like i said, hackastack is great if succeeding "eventually" is an acceptable outcome. if you have to succeed right now, on this attempt, and failure is not an option, you want every little edge you can get to help you out. sure, you might have someone standing by to yank the plug out of your head if you start twitching and squirting blood out of your eyes (or better yet, someone who can see what you can see in the matrix, but is watching from AR... i think there was a piece of 'ware like that in earlier editions... my brain wants to call it a hitcher jack for some reason?) but ultimately, you need that +2 dice, because if you fail, you're screwed either way... if you fail your brain might get fried (assuming they are even using black IC, which isn't terribly likely since it does absolutely nothing to nonliving targets, or even targets who aren't using simsense), but then again if you fail and are in AR you're probably going to get shot, burned, stabbed, bitten, drugged, or otherwise harmed anyways. when it's a choice between "better chance of success with death being the result of failure" and "worse chance of success with death being the result of failure", that's when you choose hotsim. the thing is, for shadowrunners that can happen pretty often.

[Cthulhudreams]

Again, nice in theory. In practice those +2 dice are

A) Worse than a 4th IP. I'd much rather have that than two dice.

B) Only so good as long as you don't ever sustain a wound penalty

C) Not really that significant in terms of actually accomplishing things. On average it is less than 1 success. 56% of the time those two dice will be meaningless.

Maybe we should throw down some cybercombats just to illustrate the point.

Not only this, the AR hacker has other cool features

A) Three IPs all the time makes him a much more flexible character when the chips are down

B) He can actually move/sprint! around while hacking, vitally important while you are trying to open the door that's 600 meters down the corridor.

So, I'm not so sure it's as clear cut as you are thinking.

[Jaid]

Again, nice in theory. In practice those +2 dice are

A) Worse than a 4th IP. I'd much rather have that than two dice.

B) Only so good as long as you don't ever sustain a wound penalty

C) Not really that significant in terms of actually accomplishing things. On average it is less than 1 success. 56% of the time those two dice will be meaningless.

Maybe we should throw down some cybercombats just to illustrate the point.

Not only this, the AR hacker has other cool features

A) Three IPs all the time makes him a much more flexible character when the chips are down

B) He can actually move/sprint! around while hacking, vitally important while you are trying to open the door that's 600 meters down the corridor.

So, I'm not so sure it's as clear cut as you are thinking.

A) a 4th IP is not mutually exclusive. there's always the simsense booster

B) wounds can be healed, and with crazy shadowrun tech and magic coming into play, it may not even take long.

C) a 46% chance of making a difference vs a 0% chance of making a difference. gee, i wonder which is better?

A) can have 4 IPs all the time with a simsense booster and a rigged vehicle that he rides around in. better yet, he can give control of said vehicle to a pilot which has it's own 3 separate physical IPs which do not use up the hacker's actions should he need them in the matrix. who's laughing now?

B) see above.

i'm not saying hotsim is always the right choice, here. i'm saying that it can be a good choice, the right choice even, for many situations. considering a decent hacker is gonna be dropping close to 100k credits on a good commlink and programs, being able to pick up 3 IPs for the cost of a hotsim module is nice. being able to pick up a 4th for only 65k credits and .5 essence is way nicer than the cost for picking up wired 3 as well, never mind synaptic booster 3. and for another 10k and .5 essence, he's got a net of +4 to all vehicle actions when rigging in hotsim (including gunnery, which allows him to use any weapon provided it's vehicle mounted, a much better deal than the firearms group) and reduces all thresholds for vehicle tests by 1. seriously, i understand where you're coming from when you say that hotsim has it's drawbacks. my point is simply that there are times when those drawbacks are worth it, even the ones that can't just be skipped over entirely (the aforementioned supposed lack of mobility, for example, can be negated relatively easily)

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, but we clearly think the 'default state' is different. I think that the guy who is unkillable (thanks to AR), undisruptable unless you fully damage him in one IP (thanks to logging into multiple nodes with one persona and medics with the agent program) is the best place to start because your defense is literally unbreakable for a minor increase in attack power.

Imagine if you could have a covert ops character who fully regenerates all boxes of stun and wounds every turn and resurrects himself every new combat turn. In return you have to sacrifice two dice off your 'stealth' group. This is a no brainer.

You think the 'slightly better attack' is worth sacrificing the 'unbreakable defense,' whereas I don't, and in fact think that in the general case the 'slightly better attack' will lose every single time in any 'whole of life cycle comparison' to the unbreakable defense guy.

Mobility cannot be negated as easily as you think. For example, the 'use a vehicle' plan is defeated by the cunning device known as 'a ladder' It is also defeated by any need to 'hide'

I'll do a worked example later on against knassers sample systems.

[WeaverMount]

>Maybe we should throw down some cybercombats just to illustrate the point.
----
>You think the 'slightly better attack' is worth sacrificing the 'unbreakable defense'

Cyber combat is not all that hackers do. If you want to kick someone off your team's PAN, yeah AR and IC all the way. If you need to access a file and you know that the node is programed to shut down rather the second it spots an intruder those +2 dice to your stealth roll are rather nice and don't put you in any more danger.

I think the different assumptions about 'default state' have a lot to do with assumptions about 'default tasks'. At my table once a hacker is IDed they are almost worthless, so stealth in paramount. Cybercombat is rare, for exactly the reasons you are describing. Anyone who is smart about it can make it a relatively moot issue with AR and IC.

[Cthulhudreams]

Sure, but things only have to go wrong once for you to attract IC. It's almost certain in a hack on the fly that you will have some unwanted attention heading your way.

If it's just an unattended system most hackers can just widdle on it from a great height anyway, so I'm not sure thats an issue.

[WeaverMount]

This is coming down to how a GM runs the matrix. There isn't really a cannon answer to what systems have security decks in them at what frequency. AR-IC is hands down the best way to beat beat stuff in the matrix. Hot sim + metahuman only buffs is the best way to sneak (fully aware I'm ignoring TMs, Threading, and Spirits). I'd say your augment is very similar to saying that riggers are just better than sams. Riggers can get way more attacks than a sam possibly can have, without a huge drop in DP. This doesn't mean riggers strictly dominate Sams. Some times one shot is all you will get. Some times you'd much rather have only person risking infiltration rolls.

The point is it's situational and that comes down to how the matrix run at your table what the default state should be. If you GM likes deckers being keyboard cowboys constantly locked in cybercombat: AR-IC. If your GM likes deckers being sneaky ghosts in the machine agent smithing it will draw to much heat for you to do your job. Playing along will get with your GM will get you further than anything and THAT should set your 'Default state' for runs.

Pointing out another assumption, I was thinking 'default state for a run' which I feel is an open question. If you were thinking truly 'default state' being untouchable via AR-IC while living your life, eating, sleeping, watching trid, and other down time activities then I see where you are coming from. There is no reason to expose yourself if there isn't something you need to being actively ninja-ing

[kanislatrans]

The hacker in the game I'm running goes hot sim most of the time. prefers the digital world in all its splendor to the real one. But then he dresses like a clown. No, really...red nose, size 35 shoes,the works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[ornot]

Cthulhu Dreams: I agree that by RAW AR does heavily dominate VR in cyber-combat stakes. But you do have the high cost of meat IP enhancements, which does play a role in character budgeting. Yes, the meat IP is widely useful outside of the matrix, but it still costs a lot, thus limiting what you can spend on gear and programs, which are vital for a good hacker.

[Cheops]

While Hacking on the Fly in Hot VR you get +2 dice to your Hack + Exploit test but the system still only gets Firewall + Analyze. So a VR hacker is better at Hacking on the Fly and faster at Probing. Basically, the rules give a fluff reason for "True Hackers" to use Hot VR to get in, and then afterwards you can switch to AR while fiddling with the system.

[Jaid]

Yeah, but we clearly think the 'default state' is different. I think that the guy who is unkillable (thanks to AR), undisruptable unless you fully damage him in one IP (thanks to logging into multiple nodes with one persona and medics with the agent program) is the best place to start because your defense is literally unbreakable for a minor increase in attack power.

apparently that has been errated. you can no longer take actions while the medic program is being used on you.

also, like i said, that option could easily be available to the hotsim hacker; if your agent army is packing black hammer/blackout, they do nothing to an opposing agent army, IC, etc. it's much more likely for them to pack the all-purpose attack program if they're on the offensive, or the track program if on the defensive (it's more important that they know where you are if they want to stop you from trying again than it is to blow up your persona).

of course, this is once again assuming that the agent army is even an option, which it likely won't be for a shadowrunner trying to get into an opposing system. who is going to want the best chance possible to succeed, because failure means that your target knows you're coming for them, and will respond with security forces coming to your location.

seriously, i'm not arguing that most people are going to use hotsim. but from a shadowrunner's perspective, hotsim does make sense. it makes sense because if you are detected, you are screwed anyways, and the only difference between hotsim and AR is that in hotsim they might be killing you with black IC (but more likely will be using other programs, i would suspect, unless you're in some place extremely secure that's worth using illegal black IC) whereas in AR they're going to be killing you with real life bullets.

and sure, ladders might stop a vehicle. then again, depending on what you need the ladder for, it might not... consider a lockheed sparrow with the LTA mod on it (technically you can do that with any vehicle, but that just feels wrong... at least the sparrow is a flying vehicle to begin with). it's human-sized roughly, and infiltration(vehicle) would allow you to hide with it. especially if you put ruthenium coating on it (and yes, i know you can only put so many mods on it, but i'm merely pointing out there are options to make your vehicle usable for these purposes).

[FrankTrollman]

apparently that has been errated. you can no longer take actions while the medic program is being used on you.

Sure you can. You just have to act through any of your other commlinks.

-Frank

[Jaid]

Sure you can. You just have to act through any of your other commlinks.

-Frank

in which case we are back to hacking in and logging in X number of times, where X is the number of commlinks you want to hack in with. which increases the probability of you being detected, which increases the probability of you getting shot in the face by angry security guards.

hackastack works great for a security hacker guarding a system. it does not work well for joe shadowrunner.

[FrankTrollman]

It's just an action to create as many legal accounts as you want. Once any of your commlinks have hacked in, all of your commlinks can be logged in.

-Frank

[ornot]

But surely in order to create accounts you'd need to hack in as an admin the first time, and subsequent accounts would have a lower clearance of security or just user. Even then, a sudden succession of accounts being generated would surely attract attention from a security hacker who, upon realising that he was outnumbered, could reboot the system, kicking all your comlink personae offline. If there is no security hacker, then having your big stack o' comlinks would be pointless.

[Emperor Tippy]

But surely in order to create accounts you'd need to hack in as an admin the first time, and subsequent accounts would have a lower clearance of security or just user. Even then, a sudden succession of accounts being generated would surely attract attention from a security hacker who, upon realising that he was outnumbered, could reboot the system, kicking all your comlink personae offline. If there is no security hacker, then having your big stack o' comlinks would be pointless.

...no.

Once you have an admin account you do the following: Lock out all other users, create an admin account, disconnect, log into your newly created admin account, and do whatever you want. Once you have an admin account on a system you can create any account you want, erase any account you want, change any account password you want, change security protocols, and generally do anything else you want.

As for rebooting the system, thats why you upload that nice agent to an admin account and alter the systems settings so the first program loaded on reboot is said agent. They have to hack into their system to get it back, which includes getting treated as the invader as far as IC is concerned.

Sure, its not a quiet way to do things. But it is a sure way to do them.

[Cthulhudreams]

Admin accounts can typically create all levels of account - including other admin accounts.

So you can have multiple admin accounts.

The point about the security hacker noticing is interesting, but him not noticing is exactly what the stealth program and scrubbing the logs is supposed to accomplish.

Rebooting the system every time you detect its been compromised is an intresting approach, but allows you to be DDoSed forever - I just repeatedly try to log in, you reboot ever time, you cannot run a track action to find me because you cannot get onto the node.

That and rebooting takes time so I might have done whatever I want to do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Emperor Tippy]

Rebooting the system every time you detect its been compromised is an intresting approach, but allows you to be DDoSed forever - I just repeatedly try to log in, you reboot ever time, you cannot run a track action to find me because you cannot get onto the node.

That and rebooting takes time so I might have done whatever I want to do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

What's real fun is to have an encryption IC running around set to start acting as soon as anything is detected. It's to just go around and encrypt anything and everything in the system. Another fun one is what I call lazy IC. It just keeps opening multiple programs in the node until it is slowed to response 1.

And if you are the hacker its fun to load a databomb IC that just runs around databombing anything in site and broadcasting to anything that connects to the system "All programs will be erased when the system is next started up".

[ornot]

Admin accounts can typically create all levels of account - including other admin accounts.

So you can have multiple admin accounts.

The point about the security hacker noticing is interesting, but him not noticing is exactly what the stealth program and scrubbing the logs is supposed to accomplish.

Rebooting the system every time you detect its been compromised is an intresting approach, but allows you to be DDoSed forever - I just repeatedly try to log in, you reboot ever time, you cannot run a track action to find me because you cannot get onto the node.

That and rebooting takes time so I might have done whatever I want to do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'm pretty sure that generating enough accounts for your stack o' links would attract attention regardless of your stealth program rating. They might not spot your icon doing it, but the results would be glaringly obvious. The security hacker that notices this sudden influx of users could well be credited with the sense to realise that he was outnumbered and probably outgunned, so he pulls the plug on the system. Pulling the plug is a big deal, and would only be pursued if there was no other option.

Alternatively you leave your stack o' comlinks and agents behind, hack in as an admin anyway, do what you need to do without being noticed, and without the system being shut down.

You could take over the system as described by Tippy, but the physical location of the system is still in the hands of the company, and if it has been compromised as described the smartest thing they could do is shut it down, and fix it while it's offline, and they can deal with the boot sector agent in isolation.

This does impact on productivity and efficiency, but having your network stripped by a plague of agents is not a good outcome.

[FrankTrollman]

Wait, are you telling me that the Stealth Program doesn't actually keep people from noticing that you are there?

What the hell man? What the hell?

-Frank

[ornot]

I'm suggesting that the stealth program makes it harder for others to spot your icon, but there's no way it would have an impact on stuff you do.

If you crash some IC (or any programme) while you're running stealth, the IC is still crashed, and anyone paying attention would spot that their IC is no longer running. Or are you suggesting that a crashed programme appears to continue to run when crashed by a 'stealthed' icon?

[Ryu]

The bot-net issue is not fixed. Unwired is supposed to work on that.

As for the original question: Why should I forego +2 dice (if I can go VR in the first place)? If combat will hurt, I´ll log off if I´m detected. If I can handle said combat in AR/cold VR, I can change modes and come back. The statistical +1.33 increase to initiative (while in hot mode) makes this strategy even more viable.

[Aaron]

Once you have an admin account you do the following: Lock out all other users, create an admin account, disconnect, log into your newly created admin account, and do whatever you want. Once you have an admin account on a system you can create any account you want, erase any account you want, change any account password you want, change security protocols, and generally do anything else you want.

But aren't most of those actions fairly obvious to a security hacker or a cleverly-configured IC program? To use the warehouse analogy, a lot of those things are kinda like walking into the building, showing a badge to the guard(s), and then smashing up somebody's office. It's fairly clear that what you're doing is not according to proper procedure.

And spirits save you if they've got some sort of challenge-and-response protocol.

[Aaron]

Wait, are you telling me that the Stealth Program doesn't actually keep people from noticing that you are there?
What the hell man? What the hell?

I was under the impression that the Stealth program makes you look innocuous, not invisible. I mean, if you're trying to access a node, and its System software doesn't think you're there, it's not going to send you anything, including what's in the node, etc., so you're basically disconnected. To use a modern example, if you have no ssh session on a box, you're not going to get jack from it, no matter how many commands you try to send it.

I've always thought the Stealth program didn't say "I'm not here," but rather "I'm a data packet, not a persona," or "Oh yeah, I'm totally supposed to be here," or "I am a hedge," or something.