[X] My Assistant

[Sir_Psycho]

But as a data packet doesn't fly around breaking encryptions and stealing files, I'd assume that Stealth also disguises your actions as part of the package, making your actions appear as innocuous and random memory allocation errors.

[Aaron]

But as a data packet doesn't fly around breaking encryptions and stealing files, I'd assume that Stealth also disguises your actions as part of the package, making your actions appear as innocuous and random memory allocation errors.

I'd believe it. Even if Wrong Things are happening in a node, I reckon the IC/security hacker still has to be able to discern the right icon to smack.

[Emperor Tippy]

But aren't most of those actions fairly obvious to a security hacker or a cleverly-configured IC program? To use the warehouse analogy, a lot of those things are kinda like walking into the building, showing a badge to the guard(s), and then smashing up somebody's office. It's fairly clear that what you're doing is not according to proper procedure.

Sure, but you are the person who gets to write procedure. A legit admin account (which you can create after hacking admin access) makes you essentially god on the system. You can boot off the security hacker, lock him out so he can't get back on, and tell the IC that what you are doing is perfectly ok. Or to just turn off.

[Aaron]

Sure, but you are the person who gets to write procedure. A legit admin account (which you can create after hacking admin access) makes you essentially god on the system. You can boot off the security hacker, lock him out so he can't get back on, and tell the IC that what you are doing is perfectly ok. Or to just turn off.

This is all very true, but probably only useful in certain situations. For example, the security geek that just got booted is now quite aware of what's going on, and more than likely a lot closer to the hardware in question than you are.

[Emperor Tippy]

This is all very true, but probably only useful in certain situations. For example, the security geek that just got booted is now quite aware of what's going on, and more than likely a lot closer to the hardware in question than you are.

Agreed, agreed. It's not a stealth approach (I think I already said it once this thread). It's just that sometimes the system being turned off or disconnected is just as good as you hacking it.

[Cheops]

I was under the impression that the Stealth program makes you look innocuous, not invisible. I mean, if you're trying to access a node, and its System software doesn't think you're there, it's not going to send you anything, including what's in the node, etc., so you're basically disconnected. To use a modern example, if you have no ssh session on a box, you're not going to get jack from it, no matter how many commands you try to send it.

I've always thought the Stealth program didn't say "I'm not here," but rather "I'm a data packet, not a persona," or "Oh yeah, I'm totally supposed to be here," or "I am a hedge," or something.

I totally agree with this viewpoint on Stealth. I treat it exactly like a combination of Physical Stealth and Etiquette.

I also like to run systems that have a browse utility set to continuously scan the user list, compare it to the employee access list, and report to the spider and the spider usually has to complete a dump/scan of the datalogs every period of time (1 hour for crappy security, 1 minute for high end security). Program detects n+1 admin accounts when there are only supposed to be n accounts according to HR? Alert. Log on as an inactive admin, the spider gets to make a memory test to see if he remembers that that guy isn't working right now (and follow up according to procedures).

None of this applies of course to the original Exploit attempt. That one you get for free in interest of keeping the game fun.

[Detharin]

Sure, but you are the person who gets to write procedure. A legit admin account (which you can create after hacking admin access) makes you essentially god on the system. You can boot off the security hacker, lock him out so he can't get back on, and tell the IC that what you are doing is perfectly ok. Or to just turn off.

As a GM, if one of my players were to decide to delete all the accounts. Which would lock everyone out of the system, and raise a bunch of red flags instantly putting the system into full on red alert it would end rather badly. First that security decker is going to log in with his back door account. Which you did not find because its designed to not be found. Hey maybe if you spent a couple hours probing the system in hot sim you might have found it. Instead you decided to brute force in, and have now alerted security to your presence. Perhaps suddenly you find every node full of tracer IC tracking your comlinks. Which is going to result in a hit squad on route to your location.

The run you were undertaking is likely going to go south. They are now aware of you, and will be more prepared for your return. If you survive the hit squad. Your team which was counting on you to open the doors, and disable the auto guns is now kinda stuck.

The point here is that if your on the network and you do things that are going to alert everyone to your presence do not just expect that security hacker to just shrug his shoulders. He knows the same dirty tricks shadowrunners use and its his job to prevent those from working. If you enter a hostile system, and start taking actions that will automatically set off alerts its going to end badly.

Which is why hot sim is important. Sometimes you need more initiative passes and those extra two dice. Other times you do not.

[Cheops]

Which is why hot sim is important. Sometimes you need more initiative passes and those extra two dice. Other times you do not.

however, the OP was wondering why you'd use VR as opposed to AR + Wires/Drugs/Spells/Adept Powers that results in VR IP = AR IP.

Again, it comes down to which is more important for the hacker, speed or safety? Honestly I think that for "real" hackers the speed is more important for breaking in.

[Zaranthan]

If I was GMing, and my player wanted to perform AR hacking while doing anything in the meat world, I'd give him a -2 to -3 penalty for self-inflicted AR spam. Hacking isn't just a chatroom, it's probably dozens of info feeds and several script control panels. I'd probably offer to clear the penalty with a Free Action, but that would preclude the player from performing any hacking or receiving any feedback on his persona until he spent another Free Action to bring it all back (with the AR spam penalty, of course). On the flip side, his hacking would likely receive distraction penalties as well if there was anything important or distracting hitting his meat senses (combat, navigating a corporate maze, listening to a security patrol walk down the next hallway).

The VR hacker would face none of these problems, though he would of course have his own obstacles (namely, he needs a place to collapse in a heap to do his thing, but once he's there, he's golden). The rules are written with the intent of being used in nasty, gritty situations. If you have firefights in open terrain, the rules fall to pieces because the shooters will nearly always be throwing far more dice than the dodgers. To claim balance in such a dry situation is just silly.

[Ryu]

There is a -2 mod on perception tests both for being distracted and for "bad conditions". AR hacking may invoke both. I would not extend those mods to other tests, as the number of IPs you get entitles you to do more things per round.

[Zaranthan]

I would not extend those mods to other tests, as the number of IPs you get entitles you to do more things per round.

Sure, you can act mad crazy fast, but that doesn't change the fact that your vision is blanketed with your Browse progress bar, the feedback from your Exploit program keeping you in the node, the alert from your Scan program telling you that a patrolling IC just entered the node, and the flashing status report from your Agent that just took six boxes of damage. Either you put the hacking on hold, or it's really REALLY distracting. Or do you think it's easy to aim a machine pistol with a quarter of your vision overlaid by a remote command panel?

[Ryu]

Hacking and fighting at the same time is a dangerous proposition anyway, no real need to pile on negative mods. I assume that activating the smartlink will automatically minimise your (other) matrix windows. Thats really just an interface question. Where you would hurt is on the perception test to notice an incoming attack. But the right technology can take care of that problem, too (attention coprocessors).

[Cthulhudreams]

I'd assume that unless you were retarded, leveling your rifle to use your smartgun would clear your AR display aside from the smartgun - because clearly if you've decided that you need to turn away from hacking to shoot at someone you'd want to concentrate on that.

[hobgoblin]

most matrix action that have any real say are complex actions anyways. meaning that they eat up a whole action to be performed.

so if your splitting your time between matrix and a gun fight, your missing out on 2 attacks pr matrix action...

heh, even hacking on the fly is a extended action with a roll time of 1 initative pass. so if you dont get in on the initial action, you have to use 1 or more additional passes to get in. and thats passes where you could be sending quite a bit of lead in the general direction of the enemy...

trying to crash a os is even nastier. it has a extended action period of 1 turn!

and so is decryption...

so if the hacker wants to get into the coms or smartlink system of a enemy, and the enemy have a encrypted system. it will take time. and in that same amount of time his sammie partner may have put a couple of clips of lead into the same enemy...

[Ryu]

Agreed. Hacking will take all your IPs, no matter how many. AR hackers have less dice and more expensive gear, all for the option of spending some IPs not on the matrix. So Hacking should be done from hot VR whenever possible. AR hacking seems more safe, but is so only if you can afford to raise an alert.

What AR is good for is combat support. You basically fight in the meat-world, but occasionally command previously hacked nodes and drones to aid your team. Thats either shooting twice or sending two orders like "attack my target" or "activate fire alerts". This setup handles matrix security via IC and agents.

[hobgoblin]

at least switching mode is a free action. so you could find cover, drop into VR, do your stuff, and when its time to move, drop back out to AR and haul ass...

that is, as long as you dont run into any black ice...

hmm, i wonder if unwired will hold some AR psycotropics...

[Cthulhudreams]

If so, prepare for an outbreak of blackhammering mums!

[Cheops]

If so, prepare for an outbreak of blackhammering mums!

I believe that it was the mums who were to be blackhammered.

Psychotropics are easy to introduce already since the mania/phobia rules exist in Augmentation. Just treat them like a toxin with a Power equal to the rating of the IC. If the player doesn't make his Willpower + Biofeedback (Psycho Rating) test then he picks up the negative quality.

[Jaid]

I believe that it was the mums who were to be blackhammered.

Psychotropics are easy to introduce already since the mania/phobia rules exist in Augmentation. Just treat them like a toxin with a Power equal to the rating of the IC. If the player doesn't make his Willpower + Biofeedback (Psycho Rating) test then he picks up the negative quality.

i would think they'd maybe be affected as if by those qualities temporarily, but actually getting the quality seems a bit harsh for AR.

[hobgoblin]

heh, something like that. basically i have some insane fondness for the idea of hitting people with the right colors, sounds, smells or whatever to get their brain to temporary go "pretty colors".

if that can be done, one can even mess around with AR people in much the same way as black hammer can with VR people.

as in, sec spider finds hacker in system. hacker uses AR. spider hits him with trigger pattern to make him go "drool". spider launch a trace and call a security team or lone star (or maybe we should call them loan star? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

right now the worst a spider or ic can do is black hammer the persons connection open. and for a AR user, that means tossing the comlink in the nearest bin and walk away. after spraying it with thermite or something similar first, that is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cheops]

i would think they'd maybe be affected as if by those qualities temporarily, but actually getting the quality seems a bit harsh for AR.

Sorry, I didn't notice the "AR psychotropics," and thought that the poster was referring to VR users. I would not allow psychotropics against AR users. Especially since Black Attacks cannot target AR users at all.

[Cthulhudreams]

right now the worst a spider or ic can do is black hammer the persons connection open. and for a AR user, that means tossing the comlink in the nearest bin and walk away. after spraying it with thermite or something similar first, that is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Or pulling the battery out and saying 'hahaha'

[hobgoblin]

Or pulling the battery out and saying 'hahaha'

heh, that may be a option...