Bugs infiltrating Italian Mafia?, references question Options

[bellerophon]

Hi,

I have just finished reading the May Chat Transcript and I have found this gem on page 4: "I was the guy who came up with the Bugs infiltrating Italian Mafia (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ." (Peter Taylor).

What is he referring to? Where can I find more information?

Cheers,

B.

[Fortune]

Shadows of Europe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bellerophon]

Thank you for the quick answer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fortune]

I'd give more details, but don't have the book handy at the moment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Wonder how long that's going to last. I'm sure some of the Chicago Mafiosos that survived Bug City aren't going to be too happy about Bugs in "The Family".

[Snow_Fox]

Probably about as happy as the italian Mafia is once they realize they aren't in charge anymore. Sure they make tough soldiers in a fight and a heck of a thread. "We have you grnaddaughter in a safe place. Want tyot keep her unchanged you will do ars you're told" BUT once they relized the bugs are working their own scheme, it gets ugly.(er)

[CanRay]

And Ugliest when they realize she's already been changed.

Then there'll be going to the mattresses in full force. With Shadowrunner Outsourced Support.

I mean, after all, how many Chicago Families know of 'Runners that survived Bug City right beside them? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[nezumi]

Wow, puts a totally different spin on old scenes of Bugsy and his tommy gun.

[FrankTrollman]

Who says that the Mafia is going to ever have friction with the bugs? Sacrificing your "soul" for "power" is kind of what the Mafia is all about. If the bugs in question can figure out how to guaranty flesh form transformations, maybe all the members will be totally OK with that. They keep their memories and gain tremendous power in exchange for undying, unquestioning loyalty to the family. Does that sound really that different from what the Mafia already offers? The power and the loyalty are just more now.

Now I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that there is one or more organized crime groups who are a bit more individualistic in their approach. Some of them will be Mafia splinters who refuse to make the change. Some of them will be opportunistic criminal groups from Albania and Turkey who capitalize on the fact that there are disaffected European Muslims who want to get ahead and don't want to assimilate into European society but refuse to sacrifice their Essence to spirits from the deep metaplanes that they regard as idolaters and demons.

But I think the assumption that the Mafia walked into a bug alliance as some sort of giant mistake where they didn't realize the ramifications of their actions is flat naive. I think that the folks at the top were probably acutely aware of exactly what they were getting. And what they were trading away.

-Frank

[CanRay]

Possibly, but the friction between the Italian Families (Who would seem to support the Bugs) and the North American Families (Who remember Chicago very well!) are going to cause some...

...

WORK FOR SHADOWRUNNERS!!!

[Serial_Peacemake...]

Well trading your soul for power is one thing, but having some critter use you as a human sock puppet sound a lot less appealing actually. Plus the Mafia are still sort of Roman Catholics for the most part, and I would suspect that the bugs look way too much like demons to be comfortable. Not to mention that Shadowrun kind of has the whole "Church Militant" thing going on. Course walking in to Ninja Nuns killing Bug Mafia would be surreal.

[paws2sky]

Course walking in to Ninja Nuns killing Bug Mafia would be surreal.

That would be a wild fight... I'd be pissed that I forgot to bring popcorn, personally.

[Sweaty Hippo]

Who says that the Mafia is going to ever have friction with the bugs? Sacrificing your "soul" for "power" is kind of what the Mafia is all about. If the bugs in question can figure out how to guaranty flesh form transformations, maybe all the members will be totally OK with that.

The fact that the bugs are the ones in power is not going to be OK with those who used to be at the top. Crime bosses hate to give up power, not to mention that a group of outsiders managed to infiltrate their organization.

[CanRay]

That would be a wild fight... I'd be pissed that I forgot to bring popcorn, personally.

Another reason that I'm doing that Dunkie's will thing with the Popcorn. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[FrankTrollman]

Well trading your soul for power is one thing, but having some critter use you as a human sock puppet sound a lot less appealing actually.

Sounds the same to me. You keep your memories. To any outward inspection it's still you. You talk like you, you think like you, you give the answers to questions that you would give, and so on and so forth and round and round. Indeed, from the perspective of my own personal philosophy, such a merge would still involve me being me. The merge is a life event that I know ahead of time will give me super powers from the hive and make me extremely loyal to the hive (which is fairly reasonable, as the hive will continually be giving me super powers).

The only reason to believe it's anyone or anything other than you in that body is that the game tells us explicitly that metaphysically it isn't you any more. So basically you get a demon bug monster's soul and other than that it's you through and through. If you don't care what shape your "soul" is in, as one could logically conclude from the actions of anyone who murders people for money, then honestly what's the downside? Once you've told the priest that you aren't going to live cleanly and spend eternity in hell, why wouldn't you be willing to allow a monster to devour the tattered remains of your thrice damned soul in exchange for power?

The Devil is giving you shinies in exchange for your Essence. If you genuinely believe that your spirit isn't worth the paper it's printed on, what the hell do you care? You should thank the lucky stars that this particular demon isn't discounting your soul just because it's worthless.

-Frank

[CanRay]

Yeah, but, again, the Chicago Families won't be so easily fooled. The Italian ones, sure...

Which, again, means mucho worko for the Shadowrunners. Deniable Assets would be very needed as spies are sent to see just how bad the Bug Issue "Back Home" really are.

[Sweaty Hippo]

The merge is a life event that I know ahead of time will give me super powers from the hive and make me extremely loyal to the hive (which is fairly reasonable, as the hive will continually be giving me super powers).

Any Italian syndicate worth their salt wants their members being loyal to the Capos, not some bug demons. Of course, I agree with you that many people that accept blood money have a shattered conscience, but most humans rationalize the event in many ways. Some even become more religious. Remember Jules Winnfield from Pulp Fiction? He was talking a lot about God and miracles and stuff. Humans that aren't suicidal or chronically depressed don't like to think that they're dirty scumbags that have no hope of redemption.

[hyzmarca]

Any Italian syndicate worth their salt wants their members being loyal to the Capos, not some bug demons. Of course, I agree with you that many people that accept blood money have a shattered conscience, but most humans rationalize the event in many ways. Some even become more religious. Remember Jules Winnfield from Pulp Fiction? He was talking a lot about God and miracles and stuff. Humans that aren't suicidal or chronically depressed don't like to think that they're dirty scumbags that have no hope of redemption.

The easiest way to overcome that is to make the Capos Queen bug demons.

[Sweaty Hippo]

The easiest way to overcome that is to make the Capos Queen bug demons.

Good idea, but how much does the Mafia know about the bug demons? Would the Capo know that his wife's soul has been shredded by the bug demon?
Also, does the Italian Mafia's mindset work any differently in Shadowrun than in the real world? Otherwise, one can only speculate. I'd assume that there would be some Mafiosos none too pleased to find out that their ranks were infiltrated, while some would notice that the bugs are the ones in power now, and better do as they say.

[FrankTrollman]

Good idea, but how much does the Mafia know about the bug demons? Would the Capo know that his wife's soul has been shredded by the bug demon?
Also, does the Italian Mafia's mindset work any differently in Shadowrun than in the real world. Otherwise, one can only speculate. I'd assume that there would be some Mafiosos none too pleased to find out that their ranks were infiltrated, while some would notice that the bugs are the ones in power now, and better do as they say.

Again, I don't think their ranks are "infiltrated." The group turned themselves into a hive. They are infiltrating government agencies and corporations, but that's just their mob stuff. They aren't looking at some of their membership being secretly taken over by bug spirits - the mob as a whole has transformed themselves into a collection of bug spirits.

And yeah, if anyone refused to go along with the program, I'm sure that they were coerced or shot. But that's pretty much true of any organizational change in the Mafia.

They aren't pulling the Ares thing, where they hire out some hives and hope that the hives keep doing what they tell them to. They simply found that being bugs fit with their overall philosophy and just did that.

-Frank

[Sweaty Hippo]

So wait, Frank, the ENTIRE Italian Mafia has been "bugged?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[FrankTrollman]

So wait, Frank, the ENTIRE Italian Mafia has been "bugged?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

An entire Mafia in Italy has been bugged.

The others will get with the program, find a new way to compete, or be destroyed.

-Frank

[CanRay]

Or invest in some Size 50 boots to stomp the bugs flat. Or a really big can of Raid (Insectiside).

[Sweaty Hippo]

An entire Mafia in Italy has been bugged.

The others will get with the program, find a new way to compete, or be destroyed.

-Frank

For the first two options, unless it was OVERWHELMING opposition, the Capos aren't just going to roll over and get dominated. In the 1920s, the Mafia had plenty of bloody, brutal, wars. When a bunch of bug-people overwhelming a faction and threatening the other syndicates, I'm pretty sure the Mafiosos' answer will be the same as has it always been for 80+ years: intimidation and violence.

That is if the Italian Mob's mindset is similar/the same in 70 years. The mob could have significantly changed. But reading their return to power in SR4, I'd doubt that they'd have lost any backbone. In fact, I'd assume that they would have gotten a stronger one.

[Snow_Fox]

The whole deal is not going over. the bugs are not good, sure they provide power but you lose control and a good merge, you're gone. it isn't you and a spirit, you are GONE and there's an alien spirt wearing your body like a suit, because it has your brain it has access to the memories in therebut you are gone.

At first it would seem like cool power and then when they realize they are not calling the hsots, that they have no control over them onsters. then things get UGLY.

I think that there is another angle you aren't considering when you say they will have to accept the bugs to hold strong. no no no. Mobs are always looknig to bump each other off and take the turf. Usually when they get ugly the mafia comes down hard on them in this case, the law would love it. Stomping a bug hive? Sure, blow up the hotel. They mob might even get new toys from bug hating corps, like Aztechnology or Ares. "You guys providethe footsoldiers and a full report of how it works and we'll let you play with out new manportable laser/napalm bullets/insecticide/silly string