Bugs infiltrating Italian Mafia?, references question Options

[Snow_Fox]

No it's not. Someone else is in the dirvers seat and the constant and reoccurring feature of merges is that they do not cling to their old patterns but goes off on tangents. Just because you're materialistic and might like collecting rare coins or old movies or vintage wines but one the spirit's driving, that won't matter. They will have your memory of that but will follow it's own agenda and will not care about what the last tennant will hope happened.

It will have your memories but it's a body. You're argument is like the car nut who builds a great car. pours his heart and soul into it and then sells it. Sure what he put into it will show his hallmarks for as long as the car is on the road, but he has no further say in it and will not know what happens to it.

[Aaron]

During merging, the vessel's original spirit (if present) is consumed and for all intents and purposes that character is essentially lost [...]

Just sayin'.

[FrankTrollman]

Snow Fox, stop being obtuse. If you continue to approach this question from a dualist perspective, you will never come to the conclusions that a materialist would, nor will you ever understand why they would come to those conclusions. You persist in claiming that there is an indefinable "you" that exists separately from your body and your experience as the core of your argument. Materialist philosophies explicitly reject that.

Yes, if you get merged you will do things differently from what you would have had you not been merged. Similarly, if you eat Cheerios this morning, your actions will be different than if you eat hashbrowns instead; and the materialist does not see any fundamental difference between these two statements. Larger, more meaningful events have a larger impact on your future actions, and events which cause you to live forever while being able to lift and throw a motorcycle with one arm can probably be forgiven the accusation that the impact they will have on your future actions can be expected to be large.

Obviously, you aren't a materialist. For a dualist, who conceives of themselves as being of a separate, possibly spiritual substance from their body, the fact that some spiritual transformation was explicitly going to take place would no doubt be horrifying. But not everyone in the world is a dualist. There are materialists here also. And they are seriously unable to see any fundamental difference between being irrevocably changed by seeing Two Girls, One Cup and being irrevocably changed by being magically merged with an ant spirit. Both are events that you cannot forget which will color your actions and opinions for the rest of your life.

-Frank

[Fuchs]

Frank, you can argue for materialism all you want - but the new Frank may have your memories, but he'll also have the memories of a bug spirit, and those bug spirit memories and personality will be dominant. Your goals won't matter anymore, your dreams won't matter anymore, all that matters is the hive's growth.

[Snow_Fox]

ah, now I understand you. the word you want to use, and had done so I would have understopod your view sooner, is not materialiat, it's atheist.

more importantly we are not having a rL debate, where, you and I would have to agree to disagree and then talk about other things, the baseball season, martini quality, price of gas...

BUT

We are discussing SR, a game in which it has been proven that there is a spirit which is seperate from the material body. This is proven fact in the game world, and so the materialistic view, in the game, fails.

[Aaron]

And again ... Catholic?

[Fuchs]

Even from a materialist perspective, it's not Frank. It's an alien that has access to Frank's memories, and looks like him - but has its own thoughts, agenda, and memories. Frank will just be a memory, like a movie archive.

[FrankTrollman]

ah, now I understand you. the word you want to use, and had done so I would have understopod your view sooner, is not materialiat, it's atheist.

No. I mean Materialist. There are non-materialist atheist philosophies (like Buddhism), and there are non-atheist materialist philosophies (mostly pantheistic ones).

By conflating the two, you are at best demonstrating your own tremendous ignorance on the subject. At worst, you might be being deliberately dishonest in this discussion. I'll assume for the moment that you are merely ignorant.

more importantly we are not having a rL debate, where, you and I would have to agree to disagree and then talk about other things, the baseball season, martini quality, price of gas...

To agree to disagree one has to at the least understand the oher's argument. I understand yours, but it's really obvious that you don't understand mine.

We are discussing SR, a game in which it has been proven that there is a spirit which is seperate from the material body. This is proven fact in the game world, and so the materialistic view, in the game, fails.

In the game world there are still materialists. Magic is simply accepted as part of the world. No definitive evidence exists that any part of "you" transcends your existence after you die, and there are as many people who regard an astral aura as a shadow cast by one's existence as regard it as an ultimate and ideal self. Would you trade your shadow for power? If not, can you at least begin to understand why someone else might?

-Frank

[Ancient History]

I'm just going to step in and say that SR has never confirmed or denied the existence of the soul, the afterlife, or of any particular diety or object of pre-Awakening worship. Don't take astral projection as being proof or disproof of a materialist theology just yet.

[Particle_Beam]

Beware, "FrankTrollmann" is an agent of the evil bug monster, or even already one of them, and he, or more precisely, it wants us to embrace body-snatcher-dom... Haha, I have seen through your nefarious plot, Not-FrankTrollmann-but-a-hideous-cockroach-monster-from-another-dimension-pretending-to-be-FrankTrollmann-who-has-been-body-snatched. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beret.gif)

[knasser]

I see three issues of relevance here. Two I think are original, the other has already been stated by Snow Fox, but I wish to say it again because I agree with her. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The first issue is that when a Mafia man is in fact a bug, there are serious repercussions with law enforcement. One thing keeps organised criminals in positions of power in the real world (and the megacorp playground of SR2070), and that is the tolerance of the government. This tolerance can result from a lack of will to tackle the problem, corruption that interferes with the intention to do so, and the legal process. The British government has on occasion carried out assassinations within the UK (in Northern Ireland, at least), but the police here are bound by the law, by requirements for evidence. Bugs are approved for death everywhere however. There's no 'we know he's the crime boss but we can't prove it.' There's only 'we can't prove he's a crime boss, but he's also a bug so we can and should kill him.' The game has changed once the criminals are bugs. The legal tolerance that allows them to thrive goes out the window and you're left with only lack of resource and corruption to ensure that tolerance. It's also a legal (and PR) situation that would probably allow rival gangsters to openly target their rivals for assassination. That makes a potentially significant difference as well.

The second issue is one of motivation. We know what motivation a mafia boss has for acquiring his wealth and being in charge - he gets luxury and respect. An ant spirit cares for neither of these. What motivates an ant spirit seems to be the normal insect drive - consume and reproduce. Now going back to government tolerance of organised crime, that's based on not being threatened by organised crime. The government understands people who want wealth and status for its own sake. But look at how hard they come down on people who seek power for other reasons. If someone started shaking down the local neighbourhoods so that they could fund the development of their own paramilitary force and reinforced training facility you'd see that tolerance vanish instantly. That's what bugs are - a foreign nation. They aren't working in the system and they don't know their place. They are building their own power base society that is dangerous, independent and doesn't operate on the normal economic and social basics of their host country. They are a fifth column and an extremist cult in a way that human gangsters never would be. Waco was burned down and they weren't even running extortion rackets on the local populace.

And just as emphasising the importance of government tolerance led us to question the role of bugs' motivations in keeping that tolerance, so looking at their motivations leads us to question just how much continuity is actually maintained between a pre-host vessel and their merged form. And this is where I will echo what Snow Fox has already stated. Whilst it is demonstrable that the hybrid merge has access to its predecessor's memories and knows how to emulate its mannerisms, this is not all that constitutes someone's individuality. And I don't need to refer to souls or spirits to support that. An insect spirit's motivation is clearly different to its body's previous owner. For anything other than a queen itself, the individual's loyalty is entirely to the queen. That shoots Frank's persuasive sales pitch for the insect path to personal power to pieces. What's the good in gaining power if it is used solely for someone else's gain (and moreover someone who you had no care for or loyalty to before you gained it). Or to put it in a less original way - what profits it a man to gain the whole world, if he gives up his immortal soul in return? It's always been reasonably clear to me from the source material that a hybrid insect spirit is using its access to its predecessor's memories and mannerisms to maintain a cover, not simply going about its normal life, watching the same TV shows and the same sorts of meals. Some scary Body Snatchers invasion that would be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So I think Bugs infiltrating the mafia is a compelling plot point. And the notion of someone giving themselves up to inhabitation for the sake of power intriguing. But I don't think it's necessarily sensible. As motivations go, I've always found revenge to be one of the most compelling plot drivers. If this woman gave her life in order to topple someone she hated, that would be a fascinating character.

My thoughts,

K.

[Aaron]

I'm just going to step in and say that SR has never confirmed or denied the existence of the soul, the afterlife, or of any particular diety or object of pre-Awakening worship. Don't take astral projection as being proof or disproof of a materialist theology just yet.

As it should be, at least in my opinion. Although the conversation was whether members of the Mafia, who are traditionally Catholic, would be willing to have a bug spirit take them over.

Or rather it was. Now it seems to be morphing into a debate on the definition of philosophical terms that has been further confused by the inclusion of inconsistent capitalization.

[Sweaty Hippo]

Obviously, you aren't a materialist. For a dualist, who conceives of themselves as being of a separate, possibly spiritual substance from their body, the fact that some spiritual transformation was explicitly going to take place would no doubt be horrifying. But not everyone in the world is a dualist. There are materialists here also. And they are seriously unable to see any fundamental difference between being irrevocably changed by seeing Two Girls, One Cup and being irrevocably changed by being magically merged with an ant spirit. Both are events that you cannot forget which will color your actions and opinions for the rest of your life.

-Frank

What about Italian mafioso that aren't materialist? I understand your decision, because you are a materialist, but keep in mind that not everyone is that way. Not to mention the whole Astral Plane and Spirits in Shadowrun open up another philosophical can of worms.

[JoelHalpern]

There is one aspect that I think a materialist would be willing to consider.
The merge, even a perfecdt flesh-form merge, is going to change the goals and motivations of the person. So, even accepting that a Materialist would still consider the result to be themselves, with added information and perspective (the bug components), there is the legitimate question that they would ask themselves:
Are the goals, purposes, and actions of the person afterwards sufficiently consistent with my own goals now that I want to become that person.

For a pretty similar example, most writers who hypothesize heavy duty mind training techniques consider that the criminals really don't like the penalty. Why? Because while they are still alive, they have become someone they don't want to be. Even if the result were to get them a better life style, they would choose to reject it.

Just because someone is a materialist does not mean that they are cardboard who ONLY wants long life and comfortable resources. They might well note that the result would be bug domination of their culture, centered on bug goals, etc. In fact, many portrayals of Sicilian life and crime focus on their desire to retain independence and their own cultural views.

No, it is no inconceivable that some mafioso (or some people) would choose to accept the merge. But assuming that there was reasonable knowledge of what the deal really entailed, I think that there are other factos (having nothing to do with identity or souls) that the individuals would consider. (Aaron also mentioned some others such as "hmm, now I become a target for everyone.)

Yours,
Joel M. Halpern

[Mordinvan]

(Aaron also mentioned some others such as "hmm, now I become a target for everyone.)

But on the bright side, at least you're a moving target.

[Snow_Fox]

Frank, assuming your second name is a reference to a meta type and not a pattern of posts then I can only say that you have, considering what your outlook seems to be, my pity. but I think we should keep this on SR, not RL philosophies. We will disagree on RL and we can say that's agive. SR does have a marked difference between a spirit and a material body. A mage can astrally project from the body andif not properly guarded or just unlucky, another spirit can move in while you're 'out.'

[Sweaty Hippo]

Let's focus on the original topic: Insect Mages and the La Costra Nostra. There will still be plenty of people that believe in spirits, and assuming that the mobsters knew what the Universal Brotherhood was all about, they would find their goals abhorrent if said mobsters were Catholic/or believed in spirits.

[annachie]

There seems to be an underlying assumption that any mafiosa (Or anyone else for that matter) who volenteers to undergo investment actually knows what will happen to them. That they know that they will become a bug suite or whatever. I suspect the reality would be different.
If Al C gets dragged off and force invested, then the nice new buggy can go back and tell everyone how great it is, and how much new power he's got and all that and since he looks, talks, and acts like Al C then his associates will think that it is still Al C and not some puppeteering bug. THe bug will happily play the part as instructed by the queen of course, because it will help grow the hive etc.

[Aaron]

Frank, assuming your second name is a reference to a meta type and not a pattern of posts [...]

I think it's his real name. Which is kinda gutsy, seeing as this is the Intertrucks and all.

[Sweaty Hippo]

There seems to be an underlying assumption that any mafiosa (Or anyone else for that matter) who volenteers to undergo investment actually knows what will happen to them. That they know that they will become a bug suite or whatever. I suspect the reality would be different.
If Al C gets dragged off and force invested, then the nice new buggy can go back and tell everyone how great it is, and how much new power he's got and all that and since he looks, talks, and acts like Al C then his associates will think that it is still Al C and not some puppeteering bug. THe bug will happily play the part as instructed by the queen of course, because it will help grow the hive etc.

Ah, now I understand. But my one remaining question is this:
Does the Mafia know what the Universal Brotherhood is about? Are Insect Mages public knowledge, or is knowledge of them easily attainable by the mobsters? I believe that this is an important factor.

[FrankTrollman]

What about Italian mafioso that aren't materialist? I understand your decision, because you are a materialist, but keep in mind that not everyone is that way. Not to mention the whole Astral Plane and Spirits in Shadowrun open up another philosophical can of worms.

Materialist philosophy is hardly the only one that finds the prospect of soul selling for power to be advantageous. Dualists who believe that their spirit is holding them back or endangering them for any reason have ample reason to divest themselves of it, whether they get anything for it or not. It's a fairly common heresy amongst Christians for example to believe that Good and Evil are in a war of roughly equal powers. For people who take on a Manichaean heresy or something similar, being good rather than evil holds no attraction, the goal would be to elevate yourself as high as possible in the esteem of YHWH or Satan. And for those people, allowing a demon to insinuate itself into your soul is a way to guaranty your good treatment in the afterlife by the one who wll ultimately judge it: Satan.

Similarly, anyone who reads carefully into the bible and finds that they cannot get past the gates of heaven without following the laws of Moses is in quite a bind if they've been blending fabrics and haven't mutilated their penis. However, if they find a way to destroy their immortal spirit and simply live immortally on Earth, they can save themselves from hellfire. That would make the prospect of Vampirism or Insect merging pretty attractive to many schools of Christian thought. After all, Revelations puts a pretty small number on the Saved. And if you're a mafioso, you can probably guess that there are well more than 144,000 people more deserving of salvation than you.

So yes, many people who believe in gods and the immortality and primacy of their own spirit will find it in their best interests to merge with a bug. Not all of them certainly, but many.

-Frank

[Ryu]

While your spirit will change with the merger (beyond recognition for many), a dualist may well see the changes as spiritual enlightening. Bug spirits care about their community first, always do their duty and perform way better than a mere human. If you perceive a merged form as spiritually superior, all is fine with infestation.

We all usually play people with a criminal mindset. Spiritually they are mostly bad with a few good tendencies. Now assume a new campaign. Everyone is a street gangster, nearly no ressources, but you may opt-in on the bug spirit hive your gang has going. Hive members are physically stronger, have additional powers, perform to the best of their abilities and do not betray the hive. We can´t judge the importance of the metahuman personality for the merged personality, but from the rules, all you really care about might still be there. Are you going to do the best for your little community, or are you going to chicken-out? Which answer is spiritually superior?

[nezumi]

I think it's interesting everyone assumes the bugs come in through voluntary invitation. Parasites very rarely are so lucky.

Imagine a situation like this; some form of very intelligent bug infects a person. Rather than looking to reproduce as prolifically as possible, the person looks to reproduce selectively, instead investing in a few quality merges.
The bug-person sets something up with the capo and manages to infect him against his will (perhaps by infecting the capo's doctor, who is far less protected).
The capo now returns to his family and also selectively reproduces; his goal is not to turn every mafiosa into a bug, but rather to spread to very select points. He orders several of his fellows to go visit this doctor for some new implant (haha) and of course, they go (and are subsequently put to sleep for 'surgery' and infected, without even a chance to fight back). Meanwhile, the capo turns his attention primarily on brokering temporary peace with other capos to win their trust long enough to get them infected, or just infects people who support them (doctors, etc.) spreading laterally.

At no point does the fact the mafiosas are Catholics enter into it; they never get a chance to choose. And in fact, the majority of mafiosas won't be infected at all, although they'll have enough support from infected people that the organization as a whole grows a good deal stronger. Reducing the number of infections trades power for discretion, since obviously if it became known the entire organization was infected, it would get chosen for squashing. How common infections get depends primarily on whether infection can be quickly and easily identified, for instance through astral perception.

[knasser]

I think it's interesting everyone assumes the bugs come in through voluntary invitation. Parasites very rarely are so lucky.

Imagine a situation like this; some form of very intelligent bug infects a person. Rather than looking to reproduce as prolifically as possible, the person looks to reproduce selectively, instead investing in a few quality merges.
The bug-person sets something up with the capo and manages to infect him against his will (perhaps by infecting the capo's doctor, who is far less protected).
The capo now returns to his family and also selectively reproduces; his goal is not to turn every mafiosa into a bug, but rather to spread to very select points. He orders several of his fellows to go visit this doctor for some new implant (haha) and of course, they go (and are subsequently put to sleep for 'surgery' and infected, without even a chance to fight back). Meanwhile, the capo turns his attention primarily on brokering temporary peace with other capos to win their trust long enough to get them infected, or just infects people who support them (doctors, etc.) spreading laterally.

At no point does the fact the mafiosas are Catholics enter into it; they never get a chance to choose. And in fact, the majority of mafiosas won't be infected at all, although they'll have enough support from infected people that the organization as a whole grows a good deal stronger. Reducing the number of infections trades power for discretion, since obviously if it became known the entire organization was infected, it would get chosen for squashing. How common infections get depends primarily on whether infection can be quickly and easily identified, for instance through astral perception.

Well that's what everyone assumed was the case at the beginning, or something similar. The rest of the debate has come from Frank's position that it might not be and that the Mafia might actually be willing to embrace inhabitation.

[annachie]

Philosophically speaking, the voluntary investment (That's the right word isn't it?) is a more interesting discussion. Non-voluntary is a mechanics SR discussion with a different interest level.