[X] My Assistant

[i101]

I have to agree with nezumi. I doubt that the italian mafia is turning freely into an evilish anti-christian/human bug hive ONLY to gain more power. We have to ask ourselfs who got first infected. Where did it start AND how is the mob ranked.
For example an underboss got possessed and now he/it turns his captains step by step into possessed bug spirits would be a good starting point. Furthermore the captains turn now their lieutenants by time into bugs and then those one take care of the soldiers. This sounds a lot of work, and it is for sure, but remeber that a local family never had 100+ memebers. Maybe all together but not the individual familys.
They used and still do work with a lot of freelancers, mafia soldiers recrute street thugs that want to join the family for any price. And there it starts. An small infected family could demand the thugs to prove themself thru some kind of rituals (where the infections takes place) and so on. Furthermore dont forget the mafia has also friends inside the goverment, corps and small agencys that are loyal to them too (even if this relationship is only money based).
The mob survived so long couse they made money thru those grey-zones that exist in every country/goverment. Gambling, prostitutes, money-laundry and bets. Everyone has desires, and so long the mob doenst exceed this existing grey-zone, like trafficing drugs, supporting terror-groups and so on, they will excist. And always find supportes inside by those goverments, agencys and corps. A super nasty bug queen would profit more of a infected mob familie then of a squatter army. The network that the mob owns is more influential then anything else on the street.

Anyways, at the bottom line i doubt that the roman-catholic background would allow any mafiosi to switch FREELY into a monster. Hell yeah, i now mankind can be greedy, and with no disrespect to anyone here, but anyone that questions traditions and old beliefs has never believed - neither followed old traditions or a religion.
Like i said, my point of view.

[Serial_Peacemake...]

Well the Bugs do keep this stuff on the down low. So really the first another family is going to know is when the bugs try sending back a Chicago made man as a bug, or the Chicago guys or people they have talked to go to a family meeting, take an astral peek note a bug, and either alert everyone, or if particularly tweaked by Bug City, attempt to kill the opposing family.

[Snow_Fox]

There seems to be an underlying assumption that any mafiosa (Or anyone else for that matter) who volenteers to undergo investment actually knows what will happen to them. That they know that they will become a bug suite or whatever. I suspect the reality would be different.
If Al C gets dragged off and force invested, then the nice new buggy can go back and tell everyone how great it is, and how much new power he's got and all that and since he looks, talks, and acts like Al C then his associates will think that it is still Al C and not some puppeteering bug. THe bug will happily play the part as instructed by the queen of course, because it will help grow the hive etc.

which is, of course, the real terror. You trust al and he tells you it's all good and then by the time you know otherwise, it's too late. I did have a htought htough, the local cell of mafioso is infested and they are pressuring a town, and resistance against them is organized by the local convent, who recognize God's word and his enemies and will face evil and oh by the way happen to be mantid spirits.

[Sweaty Hippo]

So yes, many people who believe in gods and the immortality and primacy of their own spirit will find it in their best interests to merge with a bug. Not all of them certainly, but many.

-Frank

One more thing: How is said person sure that the bugs are aligned with their deity? How do they know that they will keep their free will? Is it possible for an Insect Mage to betray or go against the "Hive?" Also, what if the Insects decide to destroy/dispose of you and you fellow Capos? Can you just say "screw it" and renounce being an insect mage?

[KarmaInferno]

I dunno. My concern has nothing at all to do with any immortal soul I may or may not have.

I just don't want to go to sleep and from my perspective never wake up again.

Meanwhile someone else gets to drive my body around and use my memories as they see fit.

I'm talking my conscious mind. No spiritual gobbledygook.

Sure, to the outside world, maybe we seem the same. The new driver may even have convinced itself it is me. Meanwhile, however, the pattern of neuroelectrical consciousness that was me has ceased to exist.


-karma

[Zak]

One more thing: How is said person sure that the bugs are aligned with their deity? How do they know that they will keep their free will? Is it possible for an Insect Mage to betray or go against the "Hive?" Also, what if the Insects decide to destroy/dispose of you and you fellow Capos? Can you just say "screw it" and renounce being an insect mage?

Ruleswise I would say no. Didn't say anything in the books that lets you change your tradition. Insect mages get it even worse as they seem to have a stronger bond to their totem. But it would certainly make for a good story in a novel or a campaign.

On a more general level:

Not all decisions are rational, most aren't. We usually assume (or wish) we and others could make rational decisions, but that might not be what really happens and what people really do.

And then there are those who reject the idea of free will in the first place. So what does it really matter, who is in charge of the body? You have no choice anyway because it was your fate or because some chemical reactions in your brain made you do it. (Or some pesky mage casts Control Thought (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

On another topic: Mafiosi being good Catholics? Damn, you got a dark twisted humor when it comes to 'good' Catholics. The actions of the Mafia might be in a tradition with some catholic organisations and actors, but if you go by the Book they are doomed and they 'good faith' is a farce anyway.

[FrankTrollman]

I'm talking my conscious mind. No spiritual gobbledygook.

Sure, to the outside world, maybe we seem the same. The new driver may even have convinced itself it is me. Meanwhile, however, the pattern of neuroelectrical consciousness that was me has ceased to exist.

Dude, that is spiritual gobbledygook. The idea of "the mind" as something that is separate from a continuation of your memories is an entirely religious conviction. There's no proof for anything like that, in the real world or in the Shadowrun future.

-Frank

[KarmaInferno]

Perhaps there isn't any proof.

But the possibility of just never waking up again would be a large deterrent to a lot of folks, I'm betting.

If I copy your memories, and paste them into someone else's mind, and then shoot the original "you" dead, are you still alive? The original "you" certainly would not perceive it to be so. You'd experience dying, and someone else would be running around with your mind-stuff.

There's nothing particularly "religious" about that.

Note that in the real world, I don't necessarily believe there to be "higher powers", but I still do believe in my own conscious mind. The idea that someone else could steal my memories and appearance while leaving me dead would disturb the hell out of me.


-karma

[hyzmarca]

On another topic: Mafiosi being good Catholics? Damn, you got a dark twisted humor when it comes to 'good' Catholics. The actions of the Mafia might be in a tradition with some catholic organisations and actors, but if you go by the Book they are doomed and they 'good faith' is a farce anyway.

The great thing about unconditional forgivness is that they can do anything they want and still get into Heaven so long as they confess and seek absolution. It might take longer for them to work through purgatory, but still, their lot is substantially better than that of the most righteous of heathens.

[AngelisStorm]

On another topic: Mafiosi being good Catholics? Damn, you got a dark twisted humor when it comes to 'good' Catholics. The actions of the Mafia might be in a tradition with some catholic organisations and actors, but if you go by the Book they are doomed and they 'good faith' is a farce anyway.

Maybe "Good" would be more appropriete. We all know people who think their good and aren't, at least from our perspective. They most likely do think their good. There are all sorts of questionable things that can be justified, based on your perspective. Are they right? Well that's the kicker, and if we had a definite answer, there wouldn't be conflicting moral/philosophical theories out there.

(We all have heard of, either from history or media, crime families who are highly religious. Heck, let's use select ganster rappers as an example. Does anyone think that God really would like them to buy a diamond encrusted cross instead of spending that money doing some charitable work? Or if your cynical, donated to the local church? But they still claim to be christian and love their moms, regardless of their actual actions.)

There are always going to individuals that will trade anything, even and up to their immortal soul, for power. It's why evil exists; people have choice. Frank is right on some notes, if you could ceas to exist instead of suffering torture forever with no chance of escape, many people would take it. But most people also don't think that they're that far gone. In addition to there always being individuals who will sell their soul, a majority of those individuals will also try to weasle out of it at at some point.

My 2c on the materialism isssue definitely resides with the poster who said that if you knew about a future experience that would change you, you would have to think about how it would change you, and if that is how you wish your "memories" to be changed, because your body is along for the ride.

(Hmmm, bugs. Hate bugs. Do I want my memories modified with those of a bug, and to live a bugs life and motivations, even with TV? Nope.)

I also see Vampirism as different, since your effectively adding a new group of survival traits to your life: things to avoid and things you need. But since it's a disease, I don't think it's actively changing your personality simply by catching the disease (though as Frank would probably be quick to point out, the new experiences that your now having by need of survival will effect you. And it would eventually, almost certainly, change you as a person.)

Here's a new question: why hasn't the church tried to do anything about them (the bug mob)? Stealing the immortal souls of people, definitely a no no with regards to any Christians, let alone Catholics.

(Granted in my campaign world the church is a little more powerful than it probably is in alot of campaigns, but regardless the SR Catholic church would strike me as a trifle... meddling, when it comes to important matters.

[Sweaty Hippo]

On another topic: Mafiosi being good Catholics? Damn, you got a dark twisted humor when it comes to 'good' Catholics. The actions of the Mafia might be in a tradition with some catholic organisations and actors, but if you go by the Book they are doomed and they 'good faith' is a farce anyway.

I mean "good Catholics" in the sense that even sinners try to put a respectable image/do enough good deeds so that they won't become unsaveable.

[Aaron]

I've encountered the modern Mafia twice. Once, I was dating a Mafioso's daughter. The second time I was doing some (perfectly legal) work for them. In that experience, I've found members of the Mafia to generally be good Catholics.

Now, what happens between then and 2071, I might not be able to tell you so much about.

[AngelisStorm]

My mum interacted with some "families" in her younger days down in Tacoma (the major city between Seattle and the state capital) and she said that they were VERY traditionally catholic. (She attended weddings and such.)

(Of course, this goes back to the difference between actually good catholics, and what people percieve themselves to be. On a different note, it's amazing what people think they can do to each other, and yet still expect to get to go somewhere good after death. Like it's no big deal or something.)

[Fortune]

I'm not all that interested in the various complications that might have stopped this from happening, since despite any of the problems, and all of the many and various reasons for it to fail that we can come up with, it has already actually happened. I'm much more interested in what's next on the agenda for the Bug Mob.

[Fuchs]

Getting stomped by the not-bug mob allied with just about every other faction of the powers in southern italy.

Or (my cynical view): Killed by a lone runner in the next novel (and the runner discovers he is the re-incarnation of an ancient hero and has special super powers).

Or (my very cynical view): Described in the next sourcebook as openly ruling an entire city, where humans are hunted as prey, with a blocakde of the city set up by the rest of italy. This will be dragged on for years, until shortly before SR5 it'll be all over in 2 days once the army and vatican finally move in and clean up.

[nezumi]

I also see Vampirism as different, since your effectively adding a new group of survival traits to your life: things to avoid and things you need. But since it's a disease, I don't think it's actively changing your personality simply by catching the disease (though as Frank would probably be quick to point out, the new experiences that your now having by need of survival will effect you. And it would eventually, almost certainly, change you as a person.)

There are a number of well-known diseases that cause clear and otherwise unexplained behavioral changes in the victim. An easy one is rabies; an otherwise friendly animal becomes tremendously aggressive, even attacking its own offspring. There's the one that means pregnant women shouldn't clean up cat poop. It causes rats to actively seek out cats, even though they know they'll get killed and is believed to be associated with some psychological disorders in humans as well. There's another disease of ants that cause them to walk around with their abdomens up in the air, so they look like berries and get eaten by birds. I would suspect that vampirism would have a similar effect; it's still the same line of consciousness, but all of a sudden the character is aggressive, hungry, etc. without real cause. You aren't just normal Joe Blow except now you need extra sun cream.

[annachie]

I've encountered the modern Mafia twice. Once, I was dating a Mafioso's daughter. The second time I was doing some (perfectly legal) work for them. In that experience, I've found members of the Mafia to generally be good Catholics.

One of the nice things about going to a catholic primary school. I was in the same grade as the local Don's* daughter. (Also the son of one of his laundry blokes) My sister was good friends with the younger daughter as well and even stayed over a few times. Definately 'Good Catholics' and nice people.


*He would have been a minor don though.

[WearzManySkins]

The great thing about unconditional forgivness is that they can do anything they want and still get into Heaven so long as they confess and seek absolution. It might take longer for them to work through purgatory, but still, their lot is substantially better than that of the most righteous of heathens.

Hmm what about Pagans, Heathenry is a Norse aspect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[AngelisStorm]

There are a number of well-known diseases that cause clear and otherwise unexplained behavioral changes in the victim.
I would suspect that vampirism would have a similar effect; it's still the same line of consciousness, but all of a sudden the character is aggressive, hungry, etc. without real cause. You aren't just normal Joe Blow except now you need extra sun cream.

Hmmm, excellent point. I haven't read anything that implied that (or at least that I recall), so I was assuming that it didn't do the "crazy rabies" thing (just an example). But in literature and popular culture there are plenty of examples on both sides of the line.

... I had totally forgotten that most of the strains do cause crazy stuff to happen to your personality (like making you lead cults of canniballs). I'll have to double check the vampires though, I believe some of them remain relatively themselves (and I think the non crazy ghouls are similar).

Still, I have to think that me with rabies is better than not "me" wearing a me-skin suit. One can argue about the existance or non existance of the soul, but when an invisible flying ant is offering you super powers, you might want to reconsider the existence of your spirit, from a purely "well, if the super flying ant exists, why wouldn't I?"

[FrankTrollman]

One can argue about the existance or non existance of the soul, but when an invisible flying ant is offering you super powers, you might want to reconsider the existence of your spirit, from a purely "well, if the super flying ant exists, why wouldn't I?

False dichotomy. If flying magic ant spirits exist, why wouldn't you believe in the invisible pink unicorn, the celestial teapot, or the flying spaghetti monster? Why wouldn't you believe in The Force and try to become a Jedi?

The existence of one or more things that were unknown to science at some point in the past is no reason to believe in any specific thing that is currently unknown to science.

-Frank

[Daddy's Litt...]

but it does show there is a non-material life form. A Mage can split her spirit from her body to astral travel and leave just the husk behind. In the SR worl this is a proven fact.

[Fortune]

And your point is?

Astral projection is not necessarily equatable in any way to souls or the afterlife.

[Ryu]

Astral Projection seems to prove that the immaterial part of the self can not survive without the material part. Fully consistent with the view that everything depends on the body.

Materialism would need to be restricted in the face of purely astral phenomena, but the whole metagene business would then make a strong point to call metahumanity materialist.

[Daddy's Litt...]

But it does show that the two can seperate. The body stays behind when the mage leaves it and something else can move in, possess the body, and the original owner is SOL.

[Sweaty Hippo]

False dichotomy. If flying magic ant spirits exist, why wouldn't you believe in the invisible pink unicorn, the celestial teapot, or the flying spaghetti monster? Why wouldn't you believe in The Force and try to become a Jedi?

Because I believe whatever my religion tells me to believe, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster was an evil atheist invention made to tempt the faithful!

But seriously, in SR, magic ant spirits are a reality. Inivisible pink unicorns are still in the realm of belief, as the developers did not make stats and back stories of them yet.