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The Last Samurai, True Bushido

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Jason Farlander

Dec 15 2003, 03:10 AM

Post #26

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QUOTE (toturi)

Isn't the plural of samurai samurii?

And the plural of ninja ninji?

Nope. There are no plural forms of words in Japanese. Some words, like "scissors" or "pants" are innately plural... determining whether other words are plural requires a context (the rest of the sentence).

Fortune

Dec 15 2003, 03:26 AM

Post #27

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (Jason Farlander)

Nope. There are no plural forms of words in Japanese.

So in order to talk about the five Samurai warriors standing over by the bar, a Japanese person would have to say "See that samurai, and that samurai, and that samurai, and that samurai, and that samurai..." Instead of "See those five samurai..."?

Jason Farlander View Member Profile	Dec 15 2003, 03:31 AM Post #28
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323	No. There is no plural FORM of the word, that doesn't mean plurality doesnt exist as a concept.... I mean seriously. read the rest of what I wrote in my last post... it's not like I stuttered or anything.

Raptor1033 View Member Profile	Dec 15 2003, 03:38 AM Post #29
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 3-April 03 Member No.: 4,370	Fortune, that earns you another trip through the meat grinder, now where's that parrot?

Tanka

Dec 15 2003, 03:43 AM

Post #30

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QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 14 2003, 08:28 PM)

Isn't the plural of samurai samurii?

And the plural of ninja ninji?

No, there are no double ending vowels in Japanese. You're getting confused with Latin, in which the plural of something ending in certain consonants (Of which Japanese can not) that follow an "i", the consonant is removed and an extra "i" is added to the ending.

The thought of plurality exists, it does not constitute a new rule to the Japanese, however. It does constitute a new word.

Most languages are different from English in that their languages are representations of ideas, not each word having it's own meaning.

Example #1: There is a word in Japanese that, literally translated, means "To kill oneself by throwing onself in front of an onrushing train." One word to represent that thought or idea.

Example #2: There is another word in Japanese that translates as "Unshaved due to laziness." Again; one word representing one thought or idea, not many words representing the same thought or idea as English does.

Fortune

Dec 15 2003, 03:44 AM

Post #31

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (Jason Farlander @ Dec 15 2003, 02:31 PM)

No. There is no plural FORM of the word, that doesn't mean plurality doesnt exist as a concept.... I mean seriously. read the rest of what I wrote in my last post... it's not like I stuttered or anything.

Actually, I misread toturi's post in the first place, reading it as stating that the plural of Samurai was Samurai, not Samurii, so when you disagreed with him I found it strange. :oops:

Is this Be Rude To Everyone Day at Dumpshock or what?

Raptor1033 View Member Profile	Dec 15 2003, 04:04 AM Post #32
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 3-April 03 Member No.: 4,370	hell yeah it is! plus, it's fun seeing you ground into thin chunks then feed to tanki's parrot

Tanka View Member Profile	Dec 15 2003, 04:05 AM Post #33
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715	Tanka, thank you very much.

Fortune

Dec 15 2003, 04:25 AM

Post #34

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QUOTE (Raptor1033)

hell yeah it is! plus, it's fun seeing you ground into thin chunks then feed to tanki's parrot

I wasn't referring to your comment. It's always fun to be eaten by some bird. ;)

Raptor1033 View Member Profile	Dec 15 2003, 04:27 AM Post #35
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 3-April 03 Member No.: 4,370	:D i have no idea why, but this thread is ... weirdly funny to me.

Dende View Member Profile	Dec 15 2003, 04:48 AM Post #36
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837	BTW, anyone here know what a plural count noun is as opposed to a plural non-count noun? Things like trees are count nouns.. you have 1 tree. And 14 trees. Water however, you havea glass of water, or many glasses of water. Mind you even non-count nouns can, in contexts have plurals in our language of english: IE the waters of the Chessepeak, or scientifically you have many different kinds of water in samples, thus you have waters. Other languages have simliar things, the French also pluralize verbs(not merely in the same is/are, but also depending on male/female, repect, and other conditions) The Japanese nouns merely do not have plural forms. A group of samurai consist of 5 individuals with the title of samurai. As would a group of Shogun...

Tanka View Member Profile	Dec 15 2003, 04:58 AM Post #37
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715	Technically speaking, Shogunate (Or is it Shogunite?) is the right word. That isn't the point, though. :P

Kurukami View Member Profile	Dec 15 2003, 06:10 AM Post #38
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242	As I recall from my admittedly limited study of the Japanese language, it is often the class of object that modifies the number-word. For example, when referring to five flat objects (like letters or sheets of paper), the word for referring to the quantity is different than one refers to five of some other category of object. That threw me for a while, but then again, every language has its headaches... :D

Glyph

Dec 15 2003, 07:19 AM

Post #39

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QUOTE (tanka)

Tanka, thank you very much.

Isn't tanki the plural of tanka?

Kurukami View Member Profile	Dec 15 2003, 07:35 AM Post #40
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242	Nah, that would be if his name was "tankus". :D

gknoy

Dec 16 2003, 01:12 AM

Post #41

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QUOTE (tanka)

1 Samurai, 2 Samurai
1 Ninja, 2 Ninja

Speaking of which ...

[ Spoiler ]

I thought that the scene where the ninjas attack was quite possibly one of the best fight scenes in a movie I've seen in a LONG time. I liked the way they showed the sheer desperation of the defenders, where EVERY one of the defenders was giving it their all. The scene was just awesome. I think it was worth my price of admission right there.

I also liked the way they portrayed the utter loyalty that the defenders showed when they protected their lord -- like the Secret Service, basically, they all considered themselves sworn to give their lives for the lord. Awesome.

Granted, I think the ninja were portrayed as a bit more ass-kicking than they might have been (this based on what I've heard from my ninjutsu-instructor friend), in that the usual ninja technique was to make sure you had the element of surprise, and NEVER fight a "fair" fight because a samurai (who's had a decade or more of dedicated sword training under his belt) will whupp up on most ninja opponents.

Put in SR terms, I'd say that most trained samurai would have a katana skill of 4-6, while most ninja would have stealth skills in that range, but weapon skill in the 3-4, maybe 5 range. (For the flame-ready, I said /most/ :))

That said, I loved the way the ninjas approached in skillful and stealthy fashion. :)

:)

On an almost COMPLETELY unrelated note ... I had the interesting idea of using SR mechanics to run a pre-SR time period game; e.g., old west (Hmm, light pistols suddenly are really effective when no one has body armor ... and shotguns are something to be FEARED (as well they were ;)))... it is one of those where most skills would be low (4's, maybe a 5 for a professional soldier / gunfighter ;))... or, another e.g., feudal Japan... Come on, tell me you didn't think of stealth rolls when those ninja attacked ;)

Of course, I have neither the time nor the mental energy to RUN such a game, I fear. :-) Besides, who'd want to play that, when you could run the shadows of 2063? (actually, I'd want to play it, hehe...)

:)

Tanka

Dec 16 2003, 01:14 AM

Post #42

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QUOTE (Kurukami)

Nah, that would be if his name was "tankus". :D

And if it was a Latin-based word. :grinbig:

For those who don't know: A "tanka" is a form of Japanese poetry. I, of course, did not know this when I originally came up with the nickname six years ago. I think I found out what it was four years ago.

gknoy

Dec 16 2003, 01:19 AM

Post #43

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QUOTE (Sokei)

just to clear it up , the white guy isnt the last samurai , but the white guy helps the last samurai in his rebellion.

Or, conversely ... the "last samurai" can be viewed (in my opinion) as represented by all the samurai in the movie -- from the general in the initial battle, to Lord Katsumoto (who, if there must be ONE "last samurai", is the one IMO), to all of Katsumoto's men. As much as I enjoyed Cruise's performance, I think that Katsumoto and his men stole the show for me.

[ Spoiler ]

On a side note, I /really/ liked this movie. The swordplay in the mid-movie was very entertaining, but most importantly I really liked the way it did the character development. I may joke that it's "Shogun" meets "Dances with Wolves", but bearing in mind that I loved both of those movies that can actually be consided a compliment from me. :) (Not to mention that such a short description of the movie doesn't do its merits justice.)

Seville View Member Profile	Dec 16 2003, 02:24 AM Post #44
Target Group: Members Posts: 73 Joined: 18-October 03 Member No.: 5,737	Am I the only one who wasn't really wild about this movie? The voice-overs sounded contrived, many of the characters were under-developed, and Tom Cruise just isn't strong enough as an actor to carry a movie with limited dialogue and subtle emotion (like Tom Hanks can). The theme was dumbed down to the lowest common denominator with "good guy" Samurai fighting against "bad guy" capitalists (because the Japan of modern day, our close allies in trade, are far more henious than the warriors of the past who we fought in World War II.) The movie looked great, with very good camera work and well-choreographed fight scenes, but I really can't believe that that there's still buzz about a best picture nomination.

CanvasBack View Member Profile	Dec 16 2003, 02:28 AM Post #45
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,513	Cruise definitely confuses intense with just plain tense.

Dende View Member Profile	Dec 16 2003, 02:58 AM Post #46
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837	All below is personal opinion...I don't get why more people don't see Tom Hanks the way I do...but: Seville, please please never use the name Tom Hanks when trying to prove a point about an actor. Just because he bought himself some oscars doesn't mean he is worth a shit. As far as famous over-sung actors go, he is their king. He has no skill whatsoever, he has no emotion and plays the name character in every movie he has ever been in(expect for Forest Gump, which of course he was type cast for the part) And there is no way a single actor could fix all the problems you mentioned...provided they are real indeed. Tom Cruise is not the best actor ever, but he is certainly good. As I have yet to see the movie, I will not say one way or the other about nominations for anything. In terms of its application to shawdowrun though, it is set about 200 years too early. Beyond that it is also supposed to be a "saga" style movie, meaning it is destined to be a classic if it is worth a damn in any way.

Tanka View Member Profile	Dec 16 2003, 03:03 AM Post #47
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715	I wonder if this is comparable to "Shogun," the TV miniseries from way back.

CanvasBack

Dec 16 2003, 03:13 AM

Post #48

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QUOTE (tanka @ Dec 15 2003, 10:03 PM)

I wonder if this is comparable to "Shogun," the TV miniseries from way back.

No, it's not that bad.

The movie takes some liberties and has a definite political message but the cinematography was great and the fight scenes were well choreographed. The movie is getting a manufactured push for Oscars though, which is kinda repugnant in a way but I don't think they are eligiible for the next Oscars, since they came out so late in the year. Which is why the studio may be fronting some propaganda for next time early on...

Seville View Member Profile	Dec 16 2003, 06:36 AM Post #49
Target Group: Members Posts: 73 Joined: 18-October 03 Member No.: 5,737	I'm not saying that the movie is the next "Musketeer" (screw the seven bucks wasted on that movie, I want the two hours of my life back), just that it has, like Canvasback said, great cinematography and fight scenes and little else. As far as the Tom Hanks-Tom Cruise debate, like Dende said personal opinion but I assert that Tom Hanks is in a different league from Tom Cruise. Hanks takes risks and plays widely different characters (his first Oscar was for Philadephia, his second was for Forrest Gump, and he has been nominated for Apollo 13, Castaway, and Big (I think, it might have been Punchline)). He has made movies ranging from The Road to Perdition to Joe vs the Volcano (not his best work, but I believe it shows a decent amount of range). To argue his characters are similar ignore the great level of detail and nuance he puts in. He is one of the few actors who always appears comfortable in almost whatever role he is in without the "Pacino Effect" where all character take on the same type of energy in every film he's in. Now I like Tom Cruise. But if anyone can be accused of trying to buy an Oscar, its him (although all Oscars are bought with studio publicity and politics, unless you believe that Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was a real "foriegn film"). Tom Cruise has always had the reputation and box office appeal, along with good judgement, to work with good producers and directors. He does an excellent job of "being there" for lack of a better word: Cruise has all the reactions and energy required for every part. But every time Cruise has been in a movie that is to showcase his acting, it is overshadowed by another aspect. The cinematography in the Last Samurai, or his supporting cast in Jerry McGuire, or Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men. No one can come away from Forrest Gump without taking about Tom Hanks, or Kevin Spacey in American Beauty, or Denzel Washington in Glory or Russell Crow in the Insider. Even actors who have not been recognized by the Academy still have the "It" factor to carry movies based only on their performance, like John Cusack, Johnny Deep or even someone like Hugh Jackman. Cruise made it big on his action star charisma, not his pure acting ability. One final word: before he made the leap to dramatic leading man, Tom Hanks was the Jim Carrey of the eighties, right there with Bill Murray and Eddie Murphy in terms of big screen comedians. Now, the powers that be put him in an Oscar contender every year. If that's not range, I don't know what is. Oh yeah. And there's no crying in baseball.

Tanka View Member Profile	Dec 16 2003, 10:35 PM Post #50
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715	smacks forehead I forgot that you could have an "n" as the last letter in a Japanese word. Shogun, Ronin, etc. Duh. This is the fourth time I've needed a "smack forehead" emoticon today! Somebody make one already!

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