IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Realistic forms, How realistic are they?
Mordinvan
post May 27 2008, 05:47 PM
Post #1


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,444
Joined: 18-April 08
Member No.: 15,912



The realistic form power of spirits indicates they appear to be 'real' for all intents and purposes. So does this mean they have 'brainwaves' and so could use trodes and Skinlink? Or is this not going to work because of *cough, cough, handwaving, magic* which seems perfectly reasonable to anyone who knows what they are talking about?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Adarael
post May 27 2008, 06:34 PM
Post #2


Deus Absconditus
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,742
Joined: 1-September 03
From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS
Member No.: 5,566



Note that realistic form "appears to be real for all intents and purposes." The key word is appears. They appear to have organs, they appear to bleed and breathe, they appear to be warm-blooded. But that doesn't mean their blood can be used in a transfusion, or that their liver processes toxins, or that they are actually breathing.

If you're familiar with Mage: The Awakening, look at it like Prime-created Phantasms. Phantasms have weight, texture, smell, sound, heat, all of that... but they don't conduct electricity, they aren't magnetic, the heat doesn't actually warm you.

It appears to be human, but is not.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrankTrollman
post May 27 2008, 06:38 PM
Post #3


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665



"What I want now is gentleness, and joy, and love. .. From you Data, you are fully functional, aren't you ?"
"Of course, but .."
"How fully ?"
"In every way of course. I am programmed in multiple techiques. A broad variety of pleasuring."
"Oh, you jewel, that's exactly what I hoped."

-Frank
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pendaric
post May 27 2008, 06:46 PM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 993
Joined: 5-December 05
From: Crying in the wilderness
Member No.: 8,047



What the realistic form parameters are is ultimatly up to you as the ref, defined in regards to the best story and fun experience.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mordinvan
post May 28 2008, 04:24 AM
Post #5


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,444
Joined: 18-April 08
Member No.: 15,912



QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 27 2008, 12:38 PM) *
"What I want now is gentleness, and joy, and love. .. From you Data, you are fully functional, aren't you ?"
"Of course, but .."
"How fully ?"
"In every way of course. I am programmed in multiple techiques. A broad variety of pleasuring."
"Oh, you jewel, that's exactly what I hoped."

-Frank


While it is fun to be reminded of the lighterside of dying in space, that doesn't really help me answer my question.
I think you had a hand in writing the rules for this section, and was wondering if you could tell me what you or the other devs had planned for the power? ie, could the spirit use a trode net? if not why not? or is the why not "magic"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrankTrollman
post May 28 2008, 06:22 AM
Post #6


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665



Realistic Form is a simplification of the old Human Form/Animal Form powers. A spirit with realistic form can, assuming that it has the appropriate form, be plugged into the wall and make toast. So I would assume that yes, it should be able to operate a trode net (as could a flesh form inhabited spirit).

Where it gets fuzzy is when people want their spirits to take the form of super computers, missile silos, or other expensive modern items. I would give a thumbs down to that. I left it intentionally vague however, as a certain someone wrote in to a novel a character whose ally took the form of an operable motorcycle - something which in the current rules is now arguably possible (as opposed to flat out impossible like it was in the edition for which that novel was officially written).

I tried to keep as many of the novel events as I can possible in the stuff I wrote. Heck, the cybermancy chapter in Augmentation is even compatible with Dragonheart.

-Frank
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mordinvan
post May 28 2008, 07:37 AM
Post #7


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,444
Joined: 18-April 08
Member No.: 15,912



I was wondering about how to deal with a spirit becoming an object, and figured it might work to have them make a forceX2 roll, or in the case of an ally spirit the mage make a magic+arcana roll against the object resistance of the thing they are trying to become, in the mages case to simply see if they can program the shape into the spirit formula.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jopp
post May 28 2008, 08:39 AM
Post #8


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,925
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 948



Well, realistic form to me is that they LOOK like the form they are told to mimic.

Say that your ally spirit LOOKS like a toaster but that doesn’t mean that it is healthy to plug in the extension cord into the wall socket (Elemental attack anyone).

They LOOK like something and do it well, they don’t have the function of the object.

My favourite list of forms for a possible ally spirit (And I would give it ALL of them).

For 10 karma at creation:

1.House cat
2.Stray dog
3.Nude male metahuman
4.Nude female metahuman
5.A Sasquatch
6.Gigers alien (Materialize in a drivers lap and say BOO!)
7. A crow
8. A copy of the summoner (More of me!)
9. A potted plant (For those stealthy ambushes)
10. A flying carpet
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrankTrollman
post May 28 2008, 08:59 AM
Post #9


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665



QUOTE
Say that your ally spirit LOOKS like a toaster but that doesn’t mean that it is healthy to plug in the extension cord into the wall socket (Elemental attack anyone).


This is directly contradicted in the text of the power.

QUOTE (Street Magic @ p. 102)
A spirit that appears as an object mimics the object's normal functionality; for example, a toaster could be plugged into the wall to toast bread


-Frank
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jopp
post May 28 2008, 09:05 AM
Post #10


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,925
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 948



QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 28 2008, 09:59 AM) *
This is directly contradicted in the text of the power.



-Frank


I stand corrected

So, what happens if a spirit takes the form of a BULLET?

Spirit form panther cannon shell?

I mean, IF they have the "ability" of said item then you CAN make an awakened Commlink.

I can buy that a car has wheels and rolls but really...how far does the spirit form ability go?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
RunnerPaul
post May 28 2008, 09:18 AM
Post #11


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,086
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 364



QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 28 2008, 02:22 AM) *
Where it gets fuzzy is when people want their spirits to take the form of super computers, missile silos, or other expensive modern items. I would give a thumbs down to that.


A quick and dirty way to curtail the worst abuses is to only allow the spirit to assume the form of items that have an Availability of less than or equal to the spirit's force. Sure, it's flat-out metagame logic, but many quick and dirty GM solutions are.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Chrysalis
post May 28 2008, 09:24 AM
Post #12


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,141
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Neverwhere
Member No.: 2,048



Most devices have a device rating of 3 would that be acceptable instead that a spirit can only take the form of a device with a maximum of a device 3? Of course then having a spirit who (which?) is a motorcycle is not possible.

-Chrysalis
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samba
post May 28 2008, 09:25 AM
Post #13


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 2-February 07
Member No.: 10,883



QUOTE (The Jopp @ May 28 2008, 05:05 AM) *
I can buy that a car has wheels and rolls but really...how far does the spirit form ability go?


Herbie was a free-spirit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post May 28 2008, 10:13 AM
Post #14


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,840
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



Note that it says it mimics the normal functionality of the item, not that it perfectly duplicates it.

My ruling is that the form can't do anything more than what the mundane version could. For example, a spirit in the form of a computer couldn't surf the matrix by itself; you'd need to load an agent onto it. A spirit in the form of a dikoted AVS could fire itself if smartlinked, but it can't aim itself.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jopp
post May 28 2008, 10:21 AM
Post #15


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,925
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 948



I have a serious problem with that they have the “ability? of an item, and the toaster is a good example.

The spirit have the ability to create heat to warm bread – I can buy that. But I don’t believe that it will like that someone puts in the power cord into an outlet as the spirit most likely does not need electricity.

Plugging the spirit into a wall socket would most likely induce an electric shock and damage the spirit.

I mean, IF a toaster can have immunity to electric powered attacks then we have a problem.

Flying toaster ally spirits that ignore electric attacks?

I have no problem that it uses the form as a camouflage but where do we draw the line of what is considered a ability.

Below are a few examples that makes me go HMM… due to the toaster scenario.

Toasters heat bread (right, but plugging it into wall socket should hurt)

Commlink has matrix connection (what, can the spirit use the comlink except VR and have constant watch over your shoulder as you hack VR)

Cars can move, at what speed? Like a real car?

A bullet, ok, a magical bullet, will the spirit die when I fire it?

A loaded pistol, can it shoot, have unlimited ammo?

Laser pistol with micro fusion bottle generator, have unlimited laser ammo?

Large Tiger, natural weapons?

An invisible metahuman body, right, constant invisibility on the physical plane, while affecting it.

A tiny fusion bottle generator, ok, my place in the barrens have unlimited energy


HOW and WHERE do we draw a realistic line without it all becomes a GM’s choice of what is good and what is bad.

Personally I would say it can LOOk like something but not PERFORM like it. It is a camouflage not a magical ability pool, at least not without cost.

IF a player wants a FORM to have a FUNCTION then one should have to pay extra for it.

Look like specific car: 1 Karma
Function like specific car: 1 more karma

Look like toaster, ok
Ability to NOT take damage while plugged into electric socket: 1 more karma
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jopp
post May 28 2008, 10:25 AM
Post #16


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,925
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 948



QUOTE (Cain @ May 28 2008, 11:13 AM) *
Note that it says it mimics the normal functionality of the item, not that it perfectly duplicates it.

My ruling is that the form can't do anything more than what the mundane version could. For example, a spirit in the form of a computer couldn't surf the matrix by itself; you'd need to load an agent onto it. A spirit in the form of a dikoted AVS could fire itself if smartlinked, but it can't aim itself.


But where does one draw the line?

I can have my mage create an ally spirit named Thunderbird and it takes the shape and ability of a thunderbird.

Ok, I now have my own personal transport that can go faster than the speed of sound, have unlimited fuel and (might) have armament…Just like the "mundane" version would

At the same time there should be a way to actually GET the spirit those abilities they are supposed to be able to mimic, it’s magic after all.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post May 28 2008, 11:00 AM
Post #17


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,840
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



QUOTE (The Jopp @ May 28 2008, 02:25 AM) *
But where does one draw the line?

I can have my mage create an ally spirit named Thunderbird and it takes the shape and ability of a thunderbird.

Ok, I now have my own personal transport that can go faster than the speed of sound, have unlimited fuel and (might) have armament…Just like the "mundane" version would

At the same time there should be a way to actually GET the spirit those abilities they are supposed to be able to mimic, it’s magic after all.

Who says it'd have unlimited fuel? It mimics an ordinary T-Bird. The form doesn't grant it any special abilities beyond what a normal item would have.

QUOTE
Commlink has matrix connection (what, can the spirit use the comlink except VR and have constant watch over your shoulder as you hack VR)

The spirit *is* the commlink. Since when can computers use themselves? You could install a program or Agent on the thing, but that's not the same.
QUOTE
Cars can move, at what speed? Like a real car?

Yes, why not? It's not broken.
QUOTE
A loaded pistol, can it shoot, have unlimited ammo?

Smartlinked pistols can shoot themselves, so yes. Do normal pistols have unlimited ammo? Then no to that part.
QUOTE
Laser pistol with micro fusion bottle generator, have unlimited laser ammo?

Do normal laser pistols come with micro fusion bottle generators? No? Then they just duplicate a normal laser.
QUOTE
Large Tiger, natural weapons?

Why not? You can get the Natural Weapon power for an Ally for free, anyways.
QUOTE
An invisible metahuman body, right, constant invisibility on the physical plane, while affecting it.

Are metahuman bodies naturally invisible?
QUOTE
A tiny fusion bottle generator, ok, my place in the barrens have unlimited energy

AFAIK, there aren't portable fusion generations in 2070. Since it's not a normal item, you can't duplicate it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jopp
post May 28 2008, 11:36 AM
Post #18


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,925
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 948



QUOTE (Cain @ May 28 2008, 11:00 AM) *
Are metahuman bodies naturally invisible?


No, but what exactly IS a "Realistic Form"

IS there a clear limit on WHAT the summoner can choose his ally spirit to look like?

IS realistic form limited to "real" objects and critters? I can find no clear wording of that so if a mage chooses Gigers Alien it should then have acid blood and be a bitch in close combat.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post May 28 2008, 11:42 AM
Post #19


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,840
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



QUOTE
No, but what exactly IS a "Realistic Form"


Well, according to the rules:
QUOTE
A spirit with Realistic Form can be mistaken for a normal
physical creature or object when it materializes, or it appears
unremarkable when joined to a vessel.

So, if it can't be mistaken for something mundane, or otherwise looks unremarkable, it's not realistic. Your Geiger alien would never be accepted as a mundane thing, so that's out; although a spirit could indeed Materialize in that form.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fuchs
post May 28 2008, 11:46 AM
Post #20


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,328
Joined: 28-November 05
From: Zuerich
Member No.: 8,014



The "A spirit can be a toaster you can plug in" is not in my game - I prefer to separate magical creatures like spirits and technology.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
last_of_the_grea...
post May 28 2008, 01:13 PM
Post #21


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,359
Joined: 25-June 02
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!)
Member No.: 2,904



Heh...talkie toaster...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Crusher Bob
post May 28 2008, 01:16 PM
Post #22


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,598
Joined: 15-March 03
From: Hong Kong
Member No.: 4,253



QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ May 28 2008, 02:38 AM) *
"What I want now is gentleness, and joy, and love. .. From you Data, you are fully functional, aren't you ?"
"Of course, but .."
"How fully ?"
"In every way of course. I am programmed in multiple techiques. A broad variety of pleasuring."
"Oh, you jewel, that's exactly what I hoped."

-Frank


"I see," says Zan, and bows his icy head. "SISTER, TO ME!"

They touch, one last time. "Form of . . . a world-drowning ocean."

"Shape of . . . the Midgard Serpent!"

"The lie of human form is past," murmurs the rising sea. "The lie of hearts and minds recedes. Ah! Batman, thou were wise and cruel, to bind us so."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Particle_Beam
post May 28 2008, 03:09 PM
Post #23


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 472
Joined: 14-June 07
Member No.: 11,909



Ah, the good old "Realistic Form"-power...

Can such a spirit with that power bear children? One could argue that this might be possible, as seen with the toaster-example. Also, perhaps they are the source from where awakened humans and animals come from. Perhaps the Imperial Japanese Family did indeed originate from Amaterasu, the sun goddess, who was frolicking in human form around. Others might ask about the relationship of the Virgin Maria and the Holy Spirit, and how then Jesus might be related to that.

Let's not forget the possibility for Spirits to become melee weapons with that power. If you ever wanted your +1 Flame Tongue Sword with own sentience, just convince a friendly spirit with Energy Aura (Fire) and Realistic Form to become your favorite hack'n'slash-implement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrankTrollman
post May 28 2008, 03:15 PM
Post #24


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665



Is it within the normal properties of a shower of gold or a mystical swan to be able to impregnate a human female?

---

From a strictly functional standpoint: I personally rule that a spirit can be in the form of an object and use any of its characteristics that do not require software. So you can make a boom box, but not a commlink. That's not official, and when I wrote the section it was intentionally left open-ended. But those are the criteria I use.

Spirits can appear in the form of Detroit Muscle Cars from the 1970s, but not in the form of Detroit Electric Vehicles from the 2070s.

Remember also that just because you have realistic form doesn't mean you can turn into whatever you want. You still have a single form that is whatever you the spirit happen to be. Having Realistic Form makes your physical materialization into a real physical thing, but it doesn't let you change it into crazy stuff like Plasticman.

-Frank
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mordinvan
post May 28 2008, 03:22 PM
Post #25


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,444
Joined: 18-April 08
Member No.: 15,912



So a spirit could turn into a comlink, it just wouldn't have the software required to use any of its functions until they were loaded onto it?
Hmmm... makes me want to make an ally spirit with hacking, hardware, software, and ECM skills.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 3rd June 2023 - 11:01 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.