Realistic forms, How realistic are they? |
Realistic forms, How realistic are they? |
May 27 2008, 05:47 PM
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#1
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,444 Joined: 18-April 08 Member No.: 15,912 |
The realistic form power of spirits indicates they appear to be 'real' for all intents and purposes. So does this mean they have 'brainwaves' and so could use trodes and Skinlink? Or is this not going to work because of *cough, cough, handwaving, magic* which seems perfectly reasonable to anyone who knows what they are talking about?
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May 27 2008, 06:34 PM
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#2
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Note that realistic form "appears to be real for all intents and purposes." The key word is appears. They appear to have organs, they appear to bleed and breathe, they appear to be warm-blooded. But that doesn't mean their blood can be used in a transfusion, or that their liver processes toxins, or that they are actually breathing.
If you're familiar with Mage: The Awakening, look at it like Prime-created Phantasms. Phantasms have weight, texture, smell, sound, heat, all of that... but they don't conduct electricity, they aren't magnetic, the heat doesn't actually warm you. It appears to be human, but is not. |
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May 27 2008, 06:38 PM
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#3
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
"What I want now is gentleness, and joy, and love. .. From you Data, you are fully functional, aren't you ?"
"Of course, but .." "How fully ?" "In every way of course. I am programmed in multiple techiques. A broad variety of pleasuring." "Oh, you jewel, that's exactly what I hoped." -Frank |
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May 27 2008, 06:46 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
What the realistic form parameters are is ultimatly up to you as the ref, defined in regards to the best story and fun experience.
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May 28 2008, 04:24 AM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,444 Joined: 18-April 08 Member No.: 15,912 |
"What I want now is gentleness, and joy, and love. .. From you Data, you are fully functional, aren't you ?" "Of course, but .." "How fully ?" "In every way of course. I am programmed in multiple techiques. A broad variety of pleasuring." "Oh, you jewel, that's exactly what I hoped." -Frank While it is fun to be reminded of the lighterside of dying in space, that doesn't really help me answer my question. I think you had a hand in writing the rules for this section, and was wondering if you could tell me what you or the other devs had planned for the power? ie, could the spirit use a trode net? if not why not? or is the why not "magic" |
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May 28 2008, 06:22 AM
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#6
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Realistic Form is a simplification of the old Human Form/Animal Form powers. A spirit with realistic form can, assuming that it has the appropriate form, be plugged into the wall and make toast. So I would assume that yes, it should be able to operate a trode net (as could a flesh form inhabited spirit).
Where it gets fuzzy is when people want their spirits to take the form of super computers, missile silos, or other expensive modern items. I would give a thumbs down to that. I left it intentionally vague however, as a certain someone wrote in to a novel a character whose ally took the form of an operable motorcycle - something which in the current rules is now arguably possible (as opposed to flat out impossible like it was in the edition for which that novel was officially written). I tried to keep as many of the novel events as I can possible in the stuff I wrote. Heck, the cybermancy chapter in Augmentation is even compatible with Dragonheart. -Frank |
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May 28 2008, 07:37 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,444 Joined: 18-April 08 Member No.: 15,912 |
I was wondering about how to deal with a spirit becoming an object, and figured it might work to have them make a forceX2 roll, or in the case of an ally spirit the mage make a magic+arcana roll against the object resistance of the thing they are trying to become, in the mages case to simply see if they can program the shape into the spirit formula.
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May 28 2008, 08:39 AM
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#8
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Well, realistic form to me is that they LOOK like the form they are told to mimic.
Say that your ally spirit LOOKS like a toaster but that doesn’t mean that it is healthy to plug in the extension cord into the wall socket (Elemental attack anyone). They LOOK like something and do it well, they don’t have the function of the object. My favourite list of forms for a possible ally spirit (And I would give it ALL of them). For 10 karma at creation: 1.House cat 2.Stray dog 3.Nude male metahuman 4.Nude female metahuman 5.A Sasquatch 6.Gigers alien (Materialize in a drivers lap and say BOO!) 7. A crow 8. A copy of the summoner (More of me!) 9. A potted plant (For those stealthy ambushes) 10. A flying carpet |
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May 28 2008, 08:59 AM
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#9
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
QUOTE Say that your ally spirit LOOKS like a toaster but that doesn’t mean that it is healthy to plug in the extension cord into the wall socket (Elemental attack anyone). This is directly contradicted in the text of the power. QUOTE (Street Magic @ p. 102) A spirit that appears as an object mimics the object's normal functionality; for example, a toaster could be plugged into the wall to toast bread -Frank |
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May 28 2008, 09:05 AM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
This is directly contradicted in the text of the power. -Frank I stand corrected So, what happens if a spirit takes the form of a BULLET? Spirit form panther cannon shell? I mean, IF they have the "ability" of said item then you CAN make an awakened Commlink. I can buy that a car has wheels and rolls but really...how far does the spirit form ability go? |
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May 28 2008, 09:18 AM
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#11
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Where it gets fuzzy is when people want their spirits to take the form of super computers, missile silos, or other expensive modern items. I would give a thumbs down to that. A quick and dirty way to curtail the worst abuses is to only allow the spirit to assume the form of items that have an Availability of less than or equal to the spirit's force. Sure, it's flat-out metagame logic, but many quick and dirty GM solutions are. |
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May 28 2008, 09:24 AM
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#12
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 2,048 |
Most devices have a device rating of 3 would that be acceptable instead that a spirit can only take the form of a device with a maximum of a device 3? Of course then having a spirit who (which?) is a motorcycle is not possible.
-Chrysalis |
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May 28 2008, 09:25 AM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 2-February 07 Member No.: 10,883 |
I can buy that a car has wheels and rolls but really...how far does the spirit form ability go? Herbie was a free-spirit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) |
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May 28 2008, 10:13 AM
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#14
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Note that it says it mimics the normal functionality of the item, not that it perfectly duplicates it.
My ruling is that the form can't do anything more than what the mundane version could. For example, a spirit in the form of a computer couldn't surf the matrix by itself; you'd need to load an agent onto it. A spirit in the form of a dikoted AVS could fire itself if smartlinked, but it can't aim itself. |
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May 28 2008, 10:21 AM
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#15
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
I have a serious problem with that they have the “ability� of an item, and the toaster is a good example.
The spirit have the ability to create heat to warm bread – I can buy that. But I don’t believe that it will like that someone puts in the power cord into an outlet as the spirit most likely does not need electricity. Plugging the spirit into a wall socket would most likely induce an electric shock and damage the spirit. I mean, IF a toaster can have immunity to electric powered attacks then we have a problem. Flying toaster ally spirits that ignore electric attacks? I have no problem that it uses the form as a camouflage but where do we draw the line of what is considered a ability. Below are a few examples that makes me go HMM… due to the toaster scenario. Toasters heat bread (right, but plugging it into wall socket should hurt) Commlink has matrix connection (what, can the spirit use the comlink except VR and have constant watch over your shoulder as you hack VR) Cars can move, at what speed? Like a real car? A bullet, ok, a magical bullet, will the spirit die when I fire it? A loaded pistol, can it shoot, have unlimited ammo? Laser pistol with micro fusion bottle generator, have unlimited laser ammo? Large Tiger, natural weapons? An invisible metahuman body, right, constant invisibility on the physical plane, while affecting it. A tiny fusion bottle generator, ok, my place in the barrens have unlimited energy … HOW and WHERE do we draw a realistic line without it all becomes a GM’s choice of what is good and what is bad. Personally I would say it can LOOk like something but not PERFORM like it. It is a camouflage not a magical ability pool, at least not without cost. IF a player wants a FORM to have a FUNCTION then one should have to pay extra for it. Look like specific car: 1 Karma Function like specific car: 1 more karma Look like toaster, ok Ability to NOT take damage while plugged into electric socket: 1 more karma |
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May 28 2008, 10:25 AM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Note that it says it mimics the normal functionality of the item, not that it perfectly duplicates it. My ruling is that the form can't do anything more than what the mundane version could. For example, a spirit in the form of a computer couldn't surf the matrix by itself; you'd need to load an agent onto it. A spirit in the form of a dikoted AVS could fire itself if smartlinked, but it can't aim itself. But where does one draw the line? I can have my mage create an ally spirit named Thunderbird and it takes the shape and ability of a thunderbird. Ok, I now have my own personal transport that can go faster than the speed of sound, have unlimited fuel and (might) have armament…Just like the "mundane" version would At the same time there should be a way to actually GET the spirit those abilities they are supposed to be able to mimic, it’s magic after all. |
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May 28 2008, 11:00 AM
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#17
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
But where does one draw the line? I can have my mage create an ally spirit named Thunderbird and it takes the shape and ability of a thunderbird. Ok, I now have my own personal transport that can go faster than the speed of sound, have unlimited fuel and (might) have armament…Just like the "mundane" version would At the same time there should be a way to actually GET the spirit those abilities they are supposed to be able to mimic, it’s magic after all. Who says it'd have unlimited fuel? It mimics an ordinary T-Bird. The form doesn't grant it any special abilities beyond what a normal item would have. QUOTE Commlink has matrix connection (what, can the spirit use the comlink except VR and have constant watch over your shoulder as you hack VR) The spirit *is* the commlink. Since when can computers use themselves? You could install a program or Agent on the thing, but that's not the same. QUOTE Cars can move, at what speed? Like a real car? Yes, why not? It's not broken. QUOTE A loaded pistol, can it shoot, have unlimited ammo? Smartlinked pistols can shoot themselves, so yes. Do normal pistols have unlimited ammo? Then no to that part. QUOTE Laser pistol with micro fusion bottle generator, have unlimited laser ammo? Do normal laser pistols come with micro fusion bottle generators? No? Then they just duplicate a normal laser. QUOTE Large Tiger, natural weapons? Why not? You can get the Natural Weapon power for an Ally for free, anyways. QUOTE An invisible metahuman body, right, constant invisibility on the physical plane, while affecting it. Are metahuman bodies naturally invisible? QUOTE A tiny fusion bottle generator, ok, my place in the barrens have unlimited energy … AFAIK, there aren't portable fusion generations in 2070. Since it's not a normal item, you can't duplicate it. |
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May 28 2008, 11:36 AM
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#18
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Are metahuman bodies naturally invisible? No, but what exactly IS a "Realistic Form" IS there a clear limit on WHAT the summoner can choose his ally spirit to look like? IS realistic form limited to "real" objects and critters? I can find no clear wording of that so if a mage chooses Gigers Alien it should then have acid blood and be a bitch in close combat. |
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May 28 2008, 11:42 AM
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#19
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
QUOTE No, but what exactly IS a "Realistic Form" Well, according to the rules: QUOTE A spirit with Realistic Form can be mistaken for a normal physical creature or object when it materializes, or it appears unremarkable when joined to a vessel. So, if it can't be mistaken for something mundane, or otherwise looks unremarkable, it's not realistic. Your Geiger alien would never be accepted as a mundane thing, so that's out; although a spirit could indeed Materialize in that form. |
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May 28 2008, 11:46 AM
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#20
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
The "A spirit can be a toaster you can plug in" is not in my game - I prefer to separate magical creatures like spirits and technology.
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May 28 2008, 01:13 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
Heh...talkie toaster...
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May 28 2008, 01:16 PM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
"What I want now is gentleness, and joy, and love. .. From you Data, you are fully functional, aren't you ?" "Of course, but .." "How fully ?" "In every way of course. I am programmed in multiple techiques. A broad variety of pleasuring." "Oh, you jewel, that's exactly what I hoped." -Frank "I see," says Zan, and bows his icy head. "SISTER, TO ME!" They touch, one last time. "Form of . . . a world-drowning ocean." "Shape of . . . the Midgard Serpent!" "The lie of human form is past," murmurs the rising sea. "The lie of hearts and minds recedes. Ah! Batman, thou were wise and cruel, to bind us so." |
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May 28 2008, 03:09 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Ah, the good old "Realistic Form"-power...
Can such a spirit with that power bear children? One could argue that this might be possible, as seen with the toaster-example. Also, perhaps they are the source from where awakened humans and animals come from. Perhaps the Imperial Japanese Family did indeed originate from Amaterasu, the sun goddess, who was frolicking in human form around. Others might ask about the relationship of the Virgin Maria and the Holy Spirit, and how then Jesus might be related to that. Let's not forget the possibility for Spirits to become melee weapons with that power. If you ever wanted your +1 Flame Tongue Sword with own sentience, just convince a friendly spirit with Energy Aura (Fire) and Realistic Form to become your favorite hack'n'slash-implement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) |
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May 28 2008, 03:15 PM
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#24
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Is it within the normal properties of a shower of gold or a mystical swan to be able to impregnate a human female?
--- From a strictly functional standpoint: I personally rule that a spirit can be in the form of an object and use any of its characteristics that do not require software. So you can make a boom box, but not a commlink. That's not official, and when I wrote the section it was intentionally left open-ended. But those are the criteria I use. Spirits can appear in the form of Detroit Muscle Cars from the 1970s, but not in the form of Detroit Electric Vehicles from the 2070s. Remember also that just because you have realistic form doesn't mean you can turn into whatever you want. You still have a single form that is whatever you the spirit happen to be. Having Realistic Form makes your physical materialization into a real physical thing, but it doesn't let you change it into crazy stuff like Plasticman. -Frank |
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May 28 2008, 03:22 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,444 Joined: 18-April 08 Member No.: 15,912 |
So a spirit could turn into a comlink, it just wouldn't have the software required to use any of its functions until they were loaded onto it?
Hmmm... makes me want to make an ally spirit with hacking, hardware, software, and ECM skills. |
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