Real Life Corprate Manipulations, I hate Wal-Mart....... Options

[Wounded Ronin]

Some of us happen to like this broken laissez faire capitalist system, and would prefer that the government stay the Hell out of our lives.

Ah, martindv, always the fortress of logic, supporting examples, and well articulated philosophical reasoning. I knew I could count on you.

[Wounded Ronin]

I personally feel like the US would be better off with socialized healthcare, because the current system is already as complex as a socialized system complete with paperwork, and yet at the same time quality health care is not available to everyone. Is it really more "efficient" to have the current mess of insurance companies, health care providers, and lawsuits and liability dictating through the current legalistic calculus who gets care and to what extent?

Recently, my dad went to an ear, nose, and throat specialist to take a look at his broken cheekbone. The specialist barely looked at his cheekbone, grabbed a little scope, looked in my dad's nose, said "that's terrible, do you have trouble breathing, I'm scheduling a scan", and ended the session. He then charged $2,000 dollars! My dad has never had any problems or discomfort with his nose, which wasn't even the purpose of his visit, so we cancelled the scan and subsequent visits for fear of what the doctor might try to charge for something more complex than looking up my dad's nose.

I'm so disgusted with how many health care providers are basically set up to try and milk insurance companies. What if my dad didn't have insurance? What the hell would we do with a 2000 dollar bill like that? And even if we didn't get ripped off, the insurance company sure did. That was a waste of money that somebody had to foot; a grotesque finanical inefficiency created by one private doctor. I feel very frustrated when some people don't even want to discuss socialized health care because of the term "socialized" when we have abuses like this coming from our current system.

I feel like in these difficult financial times, and with the current problems we face in health care costs for the nation, folks like this doctor are really contributing to how greedy elites are selling the United States down the river. I feel as though over the course of my life I've always done my best to embody a strong spirit of public service, and what I see so many for-profit entities doing runs strongly antithetical to my values. I'm very disappointed that lots of people in the US seem to have taken up what amounts to an ideological position that private enterprise "will always" do everything better than the government; whenever someone states in that extreme form the statement is always by necessity ideological rather than evidence-based. I believe that as a person I would be able to work in the interests of public service either for the federal government or a nonprofit and provide in many examples more good for society and the world than someone might in a for-profit enterprise; to deny that that's even possible in at least certain cases is just dogmatic and ridiculous.

[Fuchs]

On a tangent, what's the income tax rate like over in the US? For say 100K a year?

[Blade]

The french system is also better. The government would just pick up the entire tab for her medical care either way. And the kid would still get education for free or no interest loans and a government stipend for a student. sure he'll be eating ramen, but thats okay.

Well first, the government might no pick up the entire tab. Some medical care are fully refunded, other are less so (or even not at all). It's supposed to be based on the importance of the medical care, but there are still some problems (mostly with glasses... the Social Security will refund something like 4€ for glasses, except if you accept glasses that are so hideous that poor people prefer to go without glasses than with these things).

Then it's not exactly free of charge: it's paid for by the taxes. In theory at least. The big trouble we have is that in the last 20 years or so it has mostly been paid with money the government didn't have... And borrowing money for daily expenses isn't exactly a good thing. Furthermore even if medical care is mostly free, public hospitals are understaffed and some of them are getting closed down.

I don't say the system is bad. I think it's great (I even got money from the government to go study in Hong-Kong!) but it's not without problems.

[Cheops]

Here's a newsflash for all of you pining for socialized health care:

DOCTORS STILL CHARGE $2000 TO LOOKUP YOUR NOSE.

Except now the burden is born by insurance companies AND THE GOVERNMENT. What you end up having is a system in which the Healthy subsidize the unhealthy through taxes.

[ArkonC]

Here's a newsflash for all of you pining for socialized health care:

DOCTORS STILL CHARGE $2000 TO LOOKUP YOUR NOSE.

Except now the burden is born by insurance companies AND THE GOVERNMENT. What you end up having is a system in which the Healthy subsidize the unhealthy through taxes.

Complete and total bullshit.
When I go to the doctor, he charges me 25 Euros of which I get 21 Euros back through my government health care.
I pay my doctor, our socialized health care repays me.
Next time you make a statement, at least try to know what you're talking about.

[Fuchs]

Here's a newsflash for all of you pining for socialized health care:

DOCTORS STILL CHARGE $2000 TO LOOKUP YOUR NOSE.

Except now the burden is born by insurance companies AND THE GOVERNMENT. What you end up having is a system in which the Healthy subsidize the unhealthy through taxes.

What's your tax rate?

[Cheops]

Complete and total bullshit.
When I go to the doctor, he charges me 25 Euros of which I get 21 Euros back through my government health care.
I pay my doctor, our socialized health care repays me.
Next time you make a statement, at least try to know what you're talking about.

The way it works here in Canada, is he charges me 25 bucks, my private health plan gives me 21 back, and he charges the government 100 dollars.

I know how my system works. Next time take your foot out of your mouth before you open it ArkonC.

My tax rate is 15% because I am at the bottom tax bracket. I would have to pay $54 a month (for one person) for my "free" government health care if my company did not make my payments (and my last job didn't). And that only covers basic emergencies and I think 50% of the cost of care.

[ArkonC]

The way it works here in Canada, is he charges me 25 bucks, my private health plan gives me 21 back, and he charges the government 100 dollars.

I know how my system works. Next time take your foot out of your mouth before you open it ArkonC.

My tax rate is 15% because I am at the bottom tax bracket. I would have to pay $54 a month (for one person) for my "free" government health care if my company did not make my payments (and my last job didn't). And that only covers basic emergencies and I think 50% of the cost of care.

Maybe you should have specified it's about the canadian health care, which I know nothing about...
Making a blanket statement about socialized health care like that, well, it just doesn't work...
Also very funny how suddenly 2000 becomes 100, quite a difference...

What makes american health care so expensive compared to other countries is twofold (well, there are a lot more reasons, but these are the 2 big ones):
First, there's the fact that most people, because they have no or very little health care, wait too long to get treatment, and it is much cheaper to cure illness or injury sooner rather than later.
Second, there's the fact that doctors and hospitals have huge malpractice insurance fees which they just pass on to their patients.

EDIT: Also, I was hospitalized several months ago for kidney stones, was in the hospital for 5 days, in a single room, and I saw my bill, it was 2100 Euros, of which I had to pay nothing, it was all taken care of by government health care...
When I was living in the states, I went to the emergency room for a work related accident (stapeled my hand, long story), I had to wait for 5 hours before I saw a doctor, then he called a nurse to pull out the staple, give me some pain killers and slapped me with a 2700 dollar bill. Talking to the nurse, it turns out that over 2000 dollars was for various malpractice insurances, for the doctor, the hospital, the nurse, the pain killer manufacturers...

[Cheops]

Maybe you should have specified it's about the canadian health care, which I know nothing about...
Making a blanket statement about socialized health care like that, well, it just doesn't work...
Also very funny how suddenly 2000 becomes 100, quite a difference...

What makes american health care so expensive compared to other countries is twofold (well, there are a lot more reasons, but these are the 2 big ones):
First, there's the fact that most people, because they have no or very little health care, wait too long to get treatment, and it is much cheaper to cure illness or injury sooner rather than later.
Second, there's the fact that doctors and hospitals have huge malpractice insurance fees which they just pass on to their patients.

It became 100 because you used the example of 25 and 2000 would have been ridiculous in that case. Let's use the 2000 then. My government subsidizes 80% (assuming I've paid my 54/mo), that leaves 400 to cover. The plan I have happens to cover 90% so they cover 360. Leaving me to pay 40. The Doctor still gets 2000.

France covers 70%. Britain it is 100%. Can't tell with Germany or the Netherlands. Swedes pay a small fee. Not sure what part of the old world you are from but it sounds like it works about the same. Fact of the matter is that the doctors still get their pound of flesh. But instead of the patient bearing all the burden SOCIETY bears the burden.

Which gets back to my point that public health care is a tax on the healthy to subsidize the unhealthy.

[Fuchs]

We have mandatory health insurance, the government pays your insurance if you cannot afford it, and my tax rate (state and federal added together) is below 10% - and I am not paying the minimal rate. VAT is at 7,6%.

It's not a perfect system over here in Switzerland, but it shows that "socialist health care" can work very well without leading to high taxes.

[ArkonC]

It became 100 because you used the example of 25 and 2000 would have been ridiculous in that case. Let's use the 2000 then. My government subsidizes 80% (assuming I've paid my 54/mo), that leaves 400 to cover. The plan I have happens to cover 90% so they cover 360. Leaving me to pay 40. The Doctor still gets 2000.

France covers 70%. Britain it is 100%. Can't tell with Germany or the Netherlands. Swedes pay a small fee. Not sure what part of the old world you are from but it sounds like it works about the same. Fact of the matter is that the doctors still get their pound of flesh. But instead of the patient bearing all the burden SOCIETY bears the burden.

Which gets back to my point that public health care is a tax on the healthy to subsidize the unhealthy.

For a regular doctors visit, my doctor gets a grand total of 25 Euros, what I payed him, and I get 21 Euros back, there are doctors here that work at the payback rate, 21 Euros, so I would end up paying nothing...
For hospitalization and such, I'm not sure how it works, all I know is I pay 9 Euros a month for additional hospitalization insurance and I pay nothing when I need to go to the hospital...

I actually believe that it makes sense to have the strong help out the weak, the healthy pay health tax that helps out the sick, so their burden is much less and they don't have to declare bankrupcy when they break an arm (which happened to a guy I knew that lived in West Virginia, just like I feel it makes sense that working people pay taxes to help out the unemployed, so they can get back on their feet. Yes, the system has it's flaws, big ones, in fact, if you've got a moment, they are twelve-story flaws with a magnificent entrance hall, carpetting throughout, 24-hour portrage, and an enormous sign on the roof, saying `These are Large Flaws'. But it beats leaving the weak amongst us to fend for themselves...

Additional, my apologies for my overreaction to your initial statement, I guess 2 years in NYC made me a bit sensitive to people talking about the evils of government health care.

[hyzmarca]

Malpractice insurance is ultimately a good thing, because shit happens. Sometimes, a nurse confuses units with CCs and gives you 1000 times the maximum safe dose of a blood thinner. Sometimes you need a limb amputated because of antibiotic resistance flesh-eating bacteria but the guy who draws the lines of you forgets the difference between your right and his right, resulting in the amputation of the wrong limb. Nobody's perfect. And inperfection in medicine usually has bad results.

[Spike]

Malpractice Insurance is a 'necessary evil', Hyzmarca, but the system we have now is making things worse. Frivolous malpractice suits and the tendency of the insurers to pay every suit, regardless, and pass on the costs to the doctors ensures that medical costs continue to rise. Doctors can (and hopefully rarely) do fall back on their Insurance as an excuse not to concern themselves overly much with what they do.

Personally, I think a serious overhaul of the entire malpractice system would do more to fix the 'health care crisis' than having the government pay everything... but then I think a vast overhaul of the entire legal system is in order.

[Shiloh]

Malpractice insurance is ultimately a good thing, because shit happens. Sometimes, a nurse confuses units with CCs and gives you 1000 times the maximum safe dose of a blood thinner. Sometimes you need a limb amputated because of antibiotic resistance flesh-eating bacteria but the guy who draws the lines of you forgets the difference between your right and his right, resulting in the amputation of the wrong limb. Nobody's perfect. And inperfection in medicine usually has bad results.

It'd be better if 90% of the money paid into the malpractice insurance funds actually came out as payments to those who've suffered from the malpractice, as opposed to 90% of it going into the pockets of the shareholders of the insurance companies and the bonuses of the executives of the insurance companies and the fees of the lawyers "required" to fight the cases. Maybe then there wouldn't be a 2 grand premium on basic ER treatment.

[ArkonC]

Malpractice insurance is ultimately a good thing, because shit happens. Sometimes, a nurse confuses units with CCs and gives you 1000 times the maximum safe dose of a blood thinner. Sometimes you need a limb amputated because of antibiotic resistance flesh-eating bacteria but the guy who draws the lines of you forgets the difference between your right and his right, resulting in the amputation of the wrong limb. Nobody's perfect. And inperfection in medicine usually has bad results.

Of course malpractice insurance is a good thing, but the combination of a lot of lawsuits for malpractice and malpractrice insurance drives the prices through the roof, and that is what makes health care more expensive in the states than in other places, comparatively, that was my point, not that malpractice insurance is a tool of the devil... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fuchs]

Incidentally, our legal system does not permit lawyers to work for a part of the sum they obtain for their client. Win or lose, a lawyer has to bill his client for services rendered. Also, the party that loses a suit is liable for all court fees, and owes the other party compensation for their legal fees and other costs caused by the suit (if someone sues for 10000 and gets 7500 he has to pay 25% of the court costs, and receives half his legal fees and costs from the defending party. If he gets 2500, he pays 75% of the court costs, and owes the defending party 50% of their legal fees and costs, if he gets 5000 the court costs are halved, and the legal fees are paid by each side.)

That does cut down the numbers of frivoulos suits some.

[Blade]

But instead of the patient bearing all the burden SOCIETY bears the burden.

Which gets back to my point that public health care is a tax on the healthy to subsidize the unhealthy.

Exactly. Nothing's ever free. It's just that someone else is paying for it. Someone somewhere has to pay the doctor.
Yes it means that healthy people pay for unhealthy people. I've got nothing against that, even if I'm rather healthy (can't remember the last time I went to the doctor because of sickness or injury).

[Wesley Street]

Which gets back to my point that public health care is a tax on the healthy to subsidize the unhealthy.

Please. That's like saying my tax money that's earmarked for defense spending is subsidizing Lockheed Martin. It's the responsibility of any government to tend to the safety and health of its citizens which means it's supposed to help those who legitimately don't have the means to help themselves.

I'm really quite tired of hearing conservative Americans and politicians make ridiculous statements like, "If you think socialized health care is so great, go ask a Canadian!" From the Canadians (and British) I've talked to they're quite happy with their health care systems even if they do have a few flaws. I have good insurance but I'd gladly take socialized medicine over American profit driven institutions.

Countdown for thread-locking in three... two... one... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cantankerous]

Health care here in Austria is incredible. All the basics are covered, most other things are heavily subsidized, the doctors make decent money but no one is making a killing and yet this place has one of the most cutting edge medical systems on the planet...and the taxes are not out of sight at all. Add to this that there are virtually no homeless and crime is almost non-existent in a major capital city like Vienna, with two million people and a HUGE number of immigrants.

Kind of makes you wonder where we went wrong in the States, neh?

I recovered financially years ago, but I went from owning my house, two cars and a bass boat and having a hundred grand or so in the bank to dead flat broke and living in a single room the size of a crackerbox in three years almost entirely because of my then wifes medical expenses. And I had a tremendous Insurance program. Hey, anyone who tells you that the system in the US isn't horribly broken is selling either you, or more likely, themselves, a good line of BS.


Isshia

[Wesley Street]

I recovered financially years ago, but I went from owning my house, two cars and a bass boat and having a hundred grand or so in the bank to dead flat broke and living in a single room the size of a crackerbox in three years almost entirely because of my then wifes medical expenses. And I had a tremendous Insurance program.

God, that's horrible and I'm so sorry to hear that happened. That's the stuff that keeps me up at night when I go through my insurance statements and have to pay for this, that and the other because it's "not covered on my policy" when, damn it, I shouldn't HAVE TO!

[Mordinvan]

I'm really quite tired of hearing conservative Americans and politicians make ridiculous statements like, "If you think socialized health care is so great, go ask a Canadian!" From the Canadians (and British) I've talked to they're quite happy with their health care systems even if they do have a few flaws. I have good insurance but I'd gladly take socialized medicine over American profit driven institutions.

I have a few minor problems with Canadian health care, but they could all be solved by having our government NOT intentionally try to sabotage the system to implement a 2 tiered health care system. Seriously in the province I live in the government has made several decisions which have served to undermine the public system, and they were all done as 'cost cutting measures' but actually wound up costing more money then they the systems they were to replace. When things are done for a public company you don't have to gouge for proffit for the share holders, which means more money left over for actually doing the job right. Now we just need to hire private consultants who have seen how private hospitals are run to get rid of the unnessesary administration in our public hospitals, and use the left over money to do things like get more MRI's and the like, and we'll be golden.

[ArkonC]

It beats being SINless...
Though I wonder what healthcare is like for the average SINner...

[Cantankerous]

God, that's horrible and I'm so sorry to hear that happened. That's the stuff that keeps me up at night when I go through my insurance statements and have to pay for this, that and the other because it's "not covered on my policy" when, damn it, I shouldn't HAVE TO!

Those "not covered" clauses and cap clauses will get ya if you aren't lucky. Careful has little to do with it.

But hey, it was one of the reasons that after I began to recover financially I moved here, and I've never been half so happy anywhere else in my life, so it all worked out for the best in the end. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And, I do realize that I was a one in a ...case. The problem is that the "..." number is growing smaller year by year and not larger, making it ever more likely that someone else you know will have it happen to them too.

I hope to god it never happens to any of you here. I hope to god it never happens to anyone...but my wishes keep sliding through the nets somehow.


Isshia

[Mordinvan]

It beats being SINless...
Though I wonder what healthcare is like for the average SINner...

Street doc anyone? Just costs you an arm, and a leg. Or maybe just your left kidney if you're lucky.