[X] My Assistant

[Malicant]

Honestly, you should just be ignoring him at this point. You do this, and regardless of what you come up with, he will find some kind of flaw (probably related to min-maxing) & claim the character is not complete. Not worth the hassle.

EDIT: I am also fairly certain Cain is the only one on these boards that would fault you for backing down.

Nah, Synner should actually do this. If Cain starts nitpicking at the result he will make himself even more of an ass, which is highly amusing to people like me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Synner]

Honestly, you should just be ignoring him at this point. You do this, and regardless of what you come up with, he will find some kind of flaw (probably related to min-maxing) & claim the character is not complete. Not worth the hassle.

True, that's been his usual tactic. But as is usual for me, I'm willing to take up the gauntlet for the benefit of anyone who might misconstrue Cain's statements as reality.

Cain simply said:

no one has ever put their money where their mouth is, and proven that they can create a SR4 character in under two hours. Not even the line developer.

Cain made one of his trademark broad sweeping statements and has made the mistake of mentioning me (that would be the "line developer" bit for anyone joining us now.) It's a statement that I feel I can objectively disprove. He also made no specifications (Cain rarely does, it leaves him room to find flaw with one detail or another down the line and out of admitting defeat). Note also Cain made no prerequisite of a min-maxed, milked to the last die character. What Cain said is simply that no one has "proven that they can create an SR4 character in under two hours." So I'm calling him on the statement he made. For everyone's benefit, I'll even throw in that it has to be a viable, well-rounded specialist character within that 2 hour time frame. I could probably even do it in under 1 hour, but I'm giving myself some leeway since I'm giving him the opportunity of dictating the character concept.

[Sweaty Hippo]

Actually what my team considers "basic gear" is representative of the way I play things at my table and will definitely vary considerably from what any other group finds essential. When they got used to the system in SR3, my players realized (all on their lonesome) that there was some items of gear that they almost always picked up no matter what character they were playing, so they came up with gear packs with those "essentials" already added up to save chargen time.

My characters pick automatic weapons and Wired Reflexes, because their idea of fun is killing everyone. (Bonus if you play the Iggy Pop song while running a combat!)

[Sweaty Hippo]

Not one person in this thread has said that SR4 chargen is any faster than a template system. They say they might like it better, but that doesn't mean it's any faster, smoother, or easier. Even Synner's statements amount to: "It's not *that* much worse."

SR4 is not an easy system. And that's the case for everyone.

Easy does not have to equal "fun." As long as the group has fun with character generation and the game, I don't see the problem for them.

Now, an alternate template system for SR4 that is fast and easy could help players like you to get done with chargen fast and get right to the action! Probably involving skills, abilities, spells, etc., that cost a certain amount of BP, which you deduct from your total BP, and the rest is left for you to customize.

[Aaron]

Good grief. My gang takes an entire session (around three hours) to put together a group, and we're mostly veterans. Of course, we're building the entire team, deciding on a back-story, and deciding what kind of story it's going to be, but still.

[Aaron]

Er ... I made the technomancer that I'm using for one of these boards in under 45 minutes, from scratch, using nothing by my handy HP-48sx calculator and a sheet of graph paper. Complete with personality and history, I might add.

[Sweaty Hippo]

Good grief. My gang takes an entire session (around three hours) to put together a group, and we're mostly veterans. Of course, we're building the entire team, deciding on a back-story, and deciding what kind of story it's going to be, but still.

I have heard that character generation is quite long, but I managed to get the hang of it by making several characters in my free time. I believe that making character generation faster can immensely help many groups.

[Aaron]

And right there I would stop you. SR4 is an easy system. I taught 3 new players this weekend (2 who played D&D exclusively, 1 who had played SR3 and some OWoD). They had characters ready to go in an hour. I had a table copy of SR4 for each of them to use, so there was no waiting on books which can certainly slow the process down.

To add to this: I used a certain person's rather brilliant demo guide and taught the game to people in under half an hour, no cheat sheets, no step-by-step instructions, and they learned about gunfighting, hacking, and magic.

[WearzManySkins]

LOL crunching the numbers for character creation does not take that long for me and mine. It is the darned backgrounds that take even longer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) I tend to create long very detailed backgrounds for my characters sometimes research takes days for me to get that done. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[BishopMcQ]

To add to this: I used a certain person's rather brilliant demo guide and taught the game to people in under half an hour, no cheat sheets, no step-by-step instructions, and they learned about gunfighting, hacking, and magic.

Ahh the booth demo--that was a lot of fun.

[Aaron]

I've said it before: it was very well written.

[Cain]

Cain made one of his trademark broad sweeping statements and has made the mistake of mentioning me (that would be the "line developer" bit for anyone joining us now.) It's a statement that I feel I can objectively disprove. He also made no specifications (Cain rarely does, it leaves him room to find flaw with one detail or another down the line and out of admitting defeat). Note also Cain made no prerequisite of a min-maxed, milked to the last die character. What Cain said is simply that no one has "proven that they can create an SR4 character in under two hours." So I'm calling him on the statement he made. For everyone's benefit, I'll even throw in that it has to be a viable, well-rounded specialist character within that 2 hour time frame. I could probably even do it in under 1 hour, but I'm giving myself some leeway since I'm giving him the opportunity of dictating the character concept.

Actually, i made my specifications earlier in this thread. I will toss in that you can't cheat and use a program, spreadsheet, or other shortcuts. It goes without saying that you'll be providing a running commentary alongside the process.

What video chat programs do you use, and what times do you have available? I work weekends, so those are out.

[Cain]

And right there I would stop you. SR4 is an easy system. I taught 3 new players this weekend (2 who played D&D exclusively, 1 who had played SR3 and some OWoD). They had characters ready to go in an hour. I had a table copy of SR4 for each of them to use, so there was no waiting on books which can certainly slow the process down.

I taught new players Wushu, complete with character creation, inside of five minutes, with no books at all. That's an easy system. SR4 doesn't even come close.

Granted, easy isn't the only aspect of a system, but don't go about thinking that because it's theoretically possible to create a character in two hours, the game is easy.

[Sweaty Hippo]

I taught new players Wushu, complete with character creation, inside of five minutes, with no books at all. That's an easy system. SR4 doesn't even come close.

Granted, easy isn't the only aspect of a system, but don't go about thinking that because it's theoretically possible to create a character in two hours, the game is easy.

Alright, Cain, you want an easy system, because you want quick character generation and not having to flip through pages. Now, some people find juggling numbers easy. However, what matters most if said system impacts your fun and enjoyment of the game. Now, if one were to make a quicker version of character generation, perhaps as "templates" with listed BP, then players like Cain will probably be satisfied.

[Apathy]

To answer the original post, I'd like to see an entire chapter devoted to cyber-genitalia. This would cause Cain's head to spontaneously explode, and we wouldn't have to keep re-hashing these tired arguments.

[Synner]

Actually, i made my specifications earlier in this thread.

If you mean this (which was posted as a reply to a query on what constituted a "working character" to you):

Fully-tinkered and ready to run. No glaring weaknesses that aren't there by design. A reasonable degree on min-maxing is needed; it doesn't have to be optimized to within an inch of its life, but there does need to be effort made to show how the character covers for his weak areas. And it should have at least a passing resemblance to the backstory.

That's fully acceptable, although you did not mention any such criteria in your blanket statement above.

I will toss in that you can't cheat and use a program, spreadsheet, or other shortcuts. It goes without saying that you'll be providing a running commentary alongside the process.

I have no chargen program installed or spreadsheet, but I require clarification on what you qualify as "shortcuts."

For instance, I keep an expanded/annotated version of the table on p.88 SR4 (actually a couple of pages long these days) which I use as a hand-out. It includes such things as precalculated BP costs for Atts at various levels, the full list of Qualities from all the books up to and including Unwired (since I know someone is going to ask, something of the sort is planned as an official release once we have all the core books out) and page refs for certain specific character-type information (ie. for metatype att table see p. 73, SR4; for hacker commlinks, OSs, and peripherals, see p.319; for cyberware see p. 330, SR4 and p. 31, Augmentation - tables on pp.170-171; for foci see p. 191, SR4 - tables on p.340). All of which is information available in the various indexes or tables at the back of the books, but which I've gathered (just like any good GM could) in a quick reference sheet (expanded from the one in the book) . Does that constitute a shortcut? Note that strictly speaking I don't need it, the indexes and tables will suffice - it is simply a timesaver and avoids to avoid wear on my hardcopy at the table.

This is something anyone can put together the very first time they build a character - I can't even claim the idea is mine. During our first few playtest sessions one of my players started annotating the photocopy of p.88 that I handed out. When I looked at his notes I thought they made sense and started doing it myself to help future players.

The quick reference sheet above does not include our group's "basic commlink & software," "basic running gear," or "modded weapons" pre-calculated packages though.

What video chat programs do you use, and what times do you have available? I work weekends, so those are out.

I do have Skype installed, but I do not use its video chat function because I don't possess a webcam and have no intention of picking one up in the near future. Normal voice or text chat will have to do. It's slower to post stuff as you work, than just scribble down on paper, but I think I can do it. I work two jobs (including full time at Catalyst) during the week so we may have a problem with the scheduling, though I'm willing to work around it. At the moment I don't have a couple of hours to spare except at weekends, but I'm confident that will change in a couple of weeks - it's just a question of setting a date and time.

[Tycho]

Please, if you really do that, put a log on the HP. I don't want to miss that, because it is really easy to build a Character in under 2h. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

cya
Tycho

[Cthulhudreams]

What will take time is equipment imho. You can easily bang out a complete character aside from his equipment list in 15 minutes.

The equipment list takes forever though because you need to look up all this inane crap like how much does a spare clip cost, what mods count as optical so I can fit them into my mage sight goggles blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Cain]

I have no chargen program installed or spreadsheet, but I require clarification on what you qualify as "shortcuts."

Basically, anything that doesn't come directly from the books. The handy tables you built sound nice, but unless you count the time to takes to compile them into your total, they're a shortcut. You're right that anyone could create such a thing, but doing so in the middle of character creation won't save any time on that character. In the interest of fairness, I suggest that you work solely with the books, a few sheets of paper, and a pen.

I do have Skype installed, but I do not use its video chat function because I don't possess a webcam and have no intention of picking one up in the near future. Normal voice or text chat will have to do.

Now, this is a problem. How can we be sure that you're not just feeding us a line of patter, and then posting a character you created last week? I'm sure you can find a way to deal with this.

At the moment I don't have a couple of hours to spare except at weekends, but I'm confident that will change in a couple of weeks - it's just a question of setting a date and time.

Fair enough. Keep us appraised.

I *do* find it interesting that you and your ilk claim that a character is possible in 45 minutes, but you still want a couple of hours for the process, though.

[Synner]

We've discussed this issue numerous times in playtesting and among the developers, and as I mentioned previously, the consensus is that as much as 75% of the time used for character generation goes to selecting the "right combo" of augmentations and gear (though actually applying the modifications seems to be rather fast). The situation isn't helped by the fact that the gear and augmentation lists available to any character in Shadowrun are up there with the most complete and diverse of any game on the market and are spread over 4 (soon to be 5) books — and when every option has an effect it's only natural that things take time.

This situation has prompted some of our core freelancers to come up with an interesting concept to help facilitate chargen, one which Catalyst plans on developing as a product. More on that when we can announce something solid.

[Cthulhudreams]

The biggest problem is actually when an item of equipment requires assembly.

For example SMG is easy. You write down 'Ingram Smartgun X' and then you're done, because it is the best SMG. Similarly the game has two assault rifles.

With the new annoying Arsenal rules however, armour is a huge pain in the butt. You have to find some combination of armour, the stuff that counts as 1/2 body and stacks, and securetech PPP and armour modifications that maxes out your body capacity while getting the highest total, while distributing all your mods over both sets of armour so you don't exceed the capacity and focusing on the securetech and half body stuff so it can be re-used.

That actually takes 20+ minutes all by itself unless you know the answer from last time you did it.

[Synner]

Basically, anything that doesn't come directly from the books. The handy tables you built sound nice, but unless you count the time to takes to compile them into your total, they're a shortcut. You're right that anyone could create such a thing, but doing so in the middle of character creation won't save any time on that character. In the interest of fairness, I suggest that you work solely with the books, a few sheets of paper, and a pen.

Indeed it won't save you time with that first character (though the relevance of your experience building your first character to the current discussion is beyond me since quite obviously this isn't the first character I've built), but put something of the sort together the first time, and it will certainly save time and serve you well with every other character you build thereafter and it will help everyone else at the table who uses it (including, get this, people building their SR4 characters for the first time).

But as I said, it's a crutch I don't need. I can achieve the same result by printing out the SR4 index and tables at the back of the other books and not having to flip back and forth - I assume you won't qualify that as a "shortcut" since they'll be printouts of my books/PDFs.

Now, this is a problem. How can we be sure that you're not just feeding us a line of patter, and then posting a character you created last week? I'm sure you can find a way to deal with this.

Because, as I have offered, you're the one who will be providing the character concept. I have no idea what you'll be asking me to create going in. If you believe I have a stack of pre-generated characters on hand to cover any concept that you might propose, then yes we have a problem since I have no intention whatsoever of buying a webcam just to prove a point on a webforum (and if I did there would still be a half dozen ways I could "cheat" - putting stuff offscreen, cribbing in pencil, etc).

I *do* find it interesting that you and your ilk claim that a character is possible in 45 minutes, but you still want a couple of hours for the process, though.

As I noted above, I'm giving myself space to handle any curve balls you might introduce into the equation. Furthermore (even judging by numerous posts to this very thread) what constitutes an acceptable and viable character at most people's tables is obviously insufficient for you and I fully expect you to find flaw with whatever I post. Ultimatley it's a win-win situation for me, because I have no doubt I can produce a chawithing the alotted time proving to anyone interested that a character can be built in the timeframe you've clearly state you don't believe possible, plus whether you accept the character as valid/viable by your criteria or not, I have no doubt that the people here will recognize the character is indeed viable and acceptable in their games - proving my argument to them if not to you (since, to be perfectly frank, they are the only reason I'm bothering with this exercise, I've long passed the point where I am in the least bit preocupied with what you might learn from being shown you are incorrect).

[Cain]

This situation has prompted some of our core freelancers to come up with an interesting concept to help facilitate chargen, one which Catalyst plans on developing as a product. More on that when we can announce something solid.

This would be very nice to see. Keep us appraised as to when you can say something.

[Cain]

If you believe I have a stack of pre-generated characters on hand to cover any concept that you might propose,....

I can think of a dozen people here on Dumpshock who do that very thing. They already have characters to cover each and every concieveable niche. I don't know your proclivity for creating characters, but for the sake of this argument and your credibility, I'd like to see this be pure. Remember, *you* were the one who threw down the gauntlet.

And I'm going to stick with books only. That's what most of us use, it'd be unfair to do anything else.

As I noted above, I'm giving myself space to handle any curve balls you might introduce into the equation. Furthermore (even judging by numerous posts to this very thread) what constitutes an acceptable and viable character at most people's tables is obviously insufficient for you and I fully expect you to find flaw with whatever I post. Ultimatley it's a win-win situation for me, because I have no doubt I can produce a chawithing the alotted time proving to anyone interested that a character can be built in the timeframe you've clearly state you don't believe possible, plus whether you accept the character as valid/viable by your criteria or not, I have no doubt that the people here will recognize the character is indeed viable and acceptable in their games - proving my argument to them if not to you (since, to be perfectly frank, they are the only reason I'm bothering with this exercise, I've long passed the point where I am in the least bit preocupied with what you might learn from being shown you are incorrect).

That's actually interesting, because no one has ever asked what I consider to be a viable character. But in the interest of fairness, let's start with you. What do you consider to be a viable character?

At any event, curve balls or not, you sound supremely confident that you can accomplish this in under two hours. Why not up the ante? Do this on your lunch break, 30 min or less. If you really think you're that infallible, this shouldn't be a problem.

As for me, let's just say that you learn a lot about a person by both how they treat their yes-men and their constructive criticism. Just because I don't go: "SR4, Rah Rah Rah!" means I get a lot of flack from people who do. Sorry, SR4 is not perfect holy canon, and people who believe otherwise go nuts whenever their Bible is shown to be just another book.

[Synner]

The biggest problem is actually when an item of equipment requires assembly.

Agreed. The more options that are possible the more complicated and time consuming it becomes.

For example SMG is easy. You write down 'Ingram Smartgun X' and then you're done, because it is the best SMG. Similarly the game has two assault rifles.

Fortunately I've only got one player who always defaults to the same guns because "they are the best". Happily he also came up with a precalculated standard "package of mods" which all the combat characters get for their automatic weapons and long arms—though I only allow weapon and vehicle customization at chargen if PCs have either the required skill set or qualified contacts.

With the new annoying Arsenal rules however, armour is a huge pain in the butt. You have to find some combination of armour, the stuff that counts as 1/2 body and stacks, and securetech PPP and armour modifications that maxes out your body capacity while getting the highest total, while distributing all your mods over both sets of armour so you don't exceed the capacity and focusing on the securetech and half body stuff so it can be re-used.

Yup, the calculations when there's customization are a handful. Having just written up full character stats for a dozen characters in a Cast of Shadows I understand where you're coming from perfectly. There are "tricks" though, like knowing which what Agility is needed for some common armor combos.

That actually takes 20+ minutes all by itself unless you know the answer from last time you did it.

That's essentially the gimmick my group started using, they started taking note and these became their "basic gear packages."