[X] My Assistant

[Cain]

I honestly don't know anyone near me who's going. I'm not just in Oregon, I'm kinda in small-town Oregon.

[Synner]

I'm too busy for full replies but two things need mentioning at this point:

• No "template system" will be in Runners' Companion though the book will include at least a couple of alternative build systems.
• The aforementioned product (just so we don't get accused of plagiarism further down the line) we will be developing is not a template system, and without getting too deeply into how it works what I can say is it involves plug-and-play gear/skill set/implant modules or "packages" (much like those my group developed for their own use) with precalculated Build Point costs.

(Cthuludreams will be happy to know it will undoubtedly include gear).

I honestly don't know anyone near me who's going. I'm not just in Oregon, I'm kinda in small-town Oregon.

Pity cause this might have been a solution and an appropriate venue, since I will be attending.

[Cthulhudreams]

You could just nominate someone with a video camera, or a forum poster who is somewhat decent who is going.

[Malicant]

I taught new players Wushu, complete with character creation, inside of five minutes, with no books at all. That's an easy system. SR4 doesn't even come close.

Big surprise coming up! SR is not Wushu! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The only people I know that have trouble with chargen or the rules are those who don't bother to actually read the rules and can't be bothered to pay attention in general.

Friend of mine did a character couple of weeks ago. He hates to generate SR chars, because "it takes so fuckin' long". Unfortunatly, we had no hardcopys at hand, so he was using the ebooks, which are a pain in the ass to read/browse to him and me. He did not play for over a year and it was a concept he never played before (basically a thief guy). He was done in about an hour, complete with equipment. The only thing he was missing was a RFID eraser, because without much gaming experience you simply cannot tell how omnipresent RFIDs are and how much it can fuck you up to ignore them. Everything else was fine and the character works quite well.

[Drogos]

• No "template system" will be in Runners' Companion though the book will include at least a couple of alternative build systems.
• The aforementioned product (just so we don't get accused of plagiarism further down the line) we will be developing is not a template system, and without getting too deeply into how it works what I can say is it involves plug-and-play gear/skill set/implant modules or "packages" (much like those my group developed for their own use) with precalculated Build Point costs.

(Cthuludreams will be happy to know it will undoubtedly include gear).

Cool, I'll be buying both (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Any chance on the upgrades to living spaces, as mentioned in a previous post (and if I had remembered it would have been quoted too)?

[Aaron]

I *do* find it interesting that you and your ilk claim that a character is possible in 45 minutes, but you still want a couple of hours for the process, though.

You can eat a steak in under two minutes. You can take a dump in under thirty seconds. You can kiss a romantic partner in less than a second. You can create a Web page in under five minutes.

It's all about the Project Triangle, baby.

[Cain]

Big surprise coming up! SR is not Wushu!

No. Wushu is easy. SR4 is not.

The only people I know that have trouble with chargen or the rules are those who don't bother to actually read the rules and can't be bothered to pay attention in general.

Or people who try and divine the dev's actual intent. Check the vast number of threads here regarding confusion on character creation.

You can eat a steak in under two minutes. You can take a dump in under thirty seconds. You can kiss a romantic partner in less than a second. You can create a Web page in under five minutes.

Then why can't he create a character in under 45 minutes, like he claimed?

I'll happily give him the full two hours, without guilt, so long as he admits he was exaggerating on the 45 minute claim.

[Blade]

And Smurf RPG is even easier than Wushu.

As for the reason why he can't create a character in under 45 minutes, it's because he said they did so with their cheat sheets and you don't want him to use them. It's also because it takes longer to create a character while explaining everything to an audience rather than doing it all alone.

[Tiger Eyes]

I honestly don't know anyone near me who's going. I'm not just in Oregon, I'm kinda in small-town Oregon.

Cain, I'm going, and I'm also from small-town Oregon. I'd be happy to watch Synner make a character for you and report back. I'm considered fairly trustworthy (my toddler has never caught me cheating at Chutes and Ladders). Plus I expect to be bothering... er, seeing... Synner while he's there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Apathy]

Call me crazy, but I suspect that most people on this board would like to see constructive comments. Saying "SR4 character creation is too complex" without giving suggestions for improvement is not constructive.

I get that you don't like the existing ruleset for character creation. Or for called shots. Or the way skills are capped. Or the layout of the BBB. (etc, etc...) I get that, and can empathize with your frustration. But if you actually want SR4 to be better, let's hear some suggestions about ways to improve the system. Could you give examples of exactly what you mean when you say you'd like to see a "template system"? Specifically how do you think it should work? It might never become canon, but it could potentially open up new ideas that work their way into future releases and improve the overall game.

Also, it's worth noting that some of us like the complexity of SR4. I see the intricacy and depth of options in the ruleset as a good thing. If you don't then fine - you opinion is just a valid as [but no more valid than] anyone else's. Simple and fast does not always equal better.

[Cain]

As for the reason why he can't create a character in under 45 minutes, it's because he said they did so with their cheat sheets and you don't want him to use them. It's also because it takes longer to create a character while explaining everything to an audience rather than doing it all alone.

There's a lot of people-- here, on RPG.net, and in this very thread-- who state they can't create a character in under two hours. Synner has the advantage of insider familiarity on the subject. We can't do anything about that, but we can make sure that he doesn't have too many more advantages over the rest of us peons. It's only fair to see what the game is like for the rest of us.

I get that you don't like the existing ruleset for character creation. Or for called shots. Or the way skills are capped. Or the layout of the BBB. (etc, etc...) I get that, and can empathize with your frustration. But if you actually want SR4 to be better, let's hear some suggestions about ways to improve the system.

I have made many suggestions. For example, I've suggested a template system, similar (but not identical) to what existed in SR1-3. I've given suggestions on skill caps, called shots, layout of the BBB, Teamwork tests, and the longshot test, some of which have even been reported to be adopted by Dumpshockers. In fact, the ideas for Teamwork tests developed by myself and a lot of other Dumpshockers closely resembles what eventually went into the errata. I regularily write reviews for RPG.net, which have included glowing reviews of the work I especially appreciate: Adam and Jay Levine are specifically mentioned. (I think AH is mad at me because I slaughtered his pet section, even though I specifically mentioned the ACHE as well-done.)

Every time I make a suggestion, (and this is true for many people here), it tends to get buried in: "How dare you suggest holy canon isn't perfect! Infidel!" posts. Oh, and the same thing happens when I don't suck up to Synner. This is about personality, not ideas. I may be abrasive, but I attribute ideas to the people who made them, and not to the people I like.

[Eryk the Red]

The negative responses that you get, Cain, have little to do with a worship of Shadowrun and it's makers. They have everything to do with the fact that you are VERY abrasive, and take every opportunity to make the same complaints, over and over.

[Cain]

That may be the case for me, but how does that explain the others?

[Apathy]

I have made many suggestions. For example, I've suggested a template system, similar (but not identical) to what existed in SR1-3. I've given suggestions on skill caps, called shots, layout of the BBB, Teamwork tests, and the longshot test, some of which have even been reported to be adopted by Dumpshockers. In fact, the ideas for Teamwork tests developed by myself and a lot of other Dumpshockers closely resembles what eventually went into the errata. I regularily write reviews for RPG.net, which have included glowing reviews of the work I especially appreciate: Adam and Jay Levine are specifically mentioned. (I think AH is mad at me because I slaughtered his pet section, even though I specifically mentioned the ACHE as well-done.)

Since I'm not exactly familiar with your terminology, I'd like to know exactly what you mean by "template system". Is this the Priority System used in the previous editions? If so, what about the Priority system makes it easier to understand than the Point-based System? You want it similar, but not identical - what differences do you think there should be between what they had in SR3 and the "new, improved" version?

[Cain]

Since I'm not exactly familiar with your terminology, I'd like to know exactly what you mean by "template system". Is this the Priority System used in the previous editions? If so, what about the Priority system makes it easier to understand than the Point-based System? You want it similar, but not identical - what differences do you think there should be between what they had in SR3 and the "new, improved" version?

The priority system is what I'm referring to, yes. It's an elegant system that allows nearly as much flexibility as point buy, without nearly as much fiddliness. The SR4 system has much more things to buy, so the old one won't work; but but a simple: "Priority A equals X attribute points, Y skill points or Z resources" would be a handy shortcut. As it stands, there's no standards for how much is too little to spend on, say, skills; or too much, for that matter. Setting Priorities to be equal to X amount of BP, and saying what that BP will buy for you, would make life much easier.

[Aaron]

Okay, I just got done making a magician melee specialist in under 45 minutes. Unfortunately, I didn't notice my camera had quit on me until I was ready to transfer my notes onto the character sheet (when I had 9:38 left to go), so I've only got the first six minutes of video. I do have the complete notes, though, and I'd be happy to provide either the scan of the notes or the video.

[Apathy]

The priority system is what I'm referring to, yes. It's an elegant system that allows nearly as much flexibility as point buy, without nearly as much fiddliness. The SR4 system has much more things to buy, so the old one won't work; but but a simple: "Priority A equals X attribute points, Y skill points or Z resources" would be a handy shortcut. As it stands, there's no standards for how much is too little to spend on, say, skills; or too much, for that matter. Setting Priorities to be equal to X amount of BP, and saying what that BP will buy for you, would make life much easier.

Ok, at least now we're both referring to the same page. I don't happen to agree with you, but at least I think I understand where you're coming from.

My personal wish for future character generation systems is that they might make something that more closely ties BPs to Karma points. (Like BECKS vs the SR3Generator).

[Tycho]

I'm sorry for the offtopic, but this made me curious:

In a standard game, a viable character (one people would be willing to play, as opposed to a "working" character that should be able to survive) needs to have at least one specialty at 10-15+ dice, and have all the other bases covered with pools of 8-10 dice. The main bases here being: social, combat, defense, sneaking, and technical. All these are needed for a shadowrunner to do his job. Sometimes you can get away with letting one or two of those areas slide, by cross-compensating in other areas or getting the right contacts. But for a character to be truly "viable"-- capable of handling a shadowrun-- he needs to be able to address all of those areas well.

@Cain: please post (or sent me) a 400BP Magician (or Technomancer) that fullfill this requirements. You don't have to build one, just send me the mage of your group with 0Karma.


cya
Tycho

[Apathy]

Yes, that seems like a tall order. My characters usually don't cover all of those bases - that's why they're in the team, so that other members can compensate for their weaknesses.

Edited: Because it was snippy...

[Grinder]

Don't know if had been postet before, but here http://sirdoomsbadcompany.files.wordpress....anion-promo.pdf you can fnd the cover art, which looks really great! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[hermit]

Yes, that's a lovely picture. I'd just hope they don't assign art by chapter in future publucations, or, at the very least, choose artists whose styles match somewhat (and consequently, don't employ Mariusz G-something any more ... no offense to him as an artist, but his biomech stuff sticks out horribly between the other artworks).

[Blade]

choose artists whose styles match somewhat

Sometimes I think it'd be nice if all artists agreed on what metahumans look like. Some orks and trolls look like humans with tusks and horns, other look like mutant creatures, other could fit in a traditional fantasy world.
But sometimes, I think it's nice to have a large panel of styles to choose from, after all imagination is the name of the game, so it's have some room for it.

[Fuchs]

There's the "human looking" edge, so orks at least can look like humans with tusks. There's also cosmetic surgery capable of easily changing one's appearance.

[Faelan]

I thought she was an Elf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Aaron]

Don't know if had been postet before, but here http://sirdoomsbadcompany.files.wordpress....anion-promo.pdf you can fnd the cover art, which looks really great! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

Where do you find this stuff?

Also, tangential question to the moderators: do you add more icon selections to DS as new artwork is published?